>> it's a known fact

ok - let's talk facts mate

necro - specced 48 deathsight using base level 50 lifetap with 179 delve - best buffs available give this a 2.0 sec cast time - using this as it is the highest delve DD necros have

wizzard - specced 48 ice using spec level 48 DD + 20% debuff with 199 delve - with 392 dex can cast at 1.1 secs

to get some even numbers, we'll look at dps over 22 seconds - so the wizzard will cast 20 times in that time, the necro will cast 11 times

wizzard has 10% spell pierce and necro has 25% spell pierce

target dummy has 26% to all resists from items and red cleric and friar casted resists for 50% total

assume straight delve value for damage, and no outright resists

necro - 25% SP means only (50%-25%=) 25% final resist - so with 179 delve that is (179*0.75%=) 134.25 damage per spell - so for 11 casts over 22 seconds that's (134.25*11/22=) 67.125 damage per second (dps)

wizzard - has only 10% SP so 1st spell has (50%-10%=) 40% final resist - so with 199 delve that is (199*0.60%=) 119.4 damage - DD also has 20% debuff component which stacks with SP - so every subsequent spell has (50%-10%-20%=) 20% final resist - so with 199 delve that is (199*0.80%=) 159.2 damage - so 1 cast of 119.4 plus 19 casts of 159.2 gives ((119.4 + (159.2*19))/22=) 142.91 dps

ice wizzard spec DD hits (142.91/67.125=) 2.13 times harder than necro base LT

>> necro's are hitting AS hard if not harder than most casters in the game

presumably wizzards don't qualify as "most"?

>> Don't try to turn a blind eye to facts.

so do as you say, not as you do, right?

>> nerf their ABS

see my earlier post about this

>> and nerf the tethor range

i've no idea why you have your knickers in such a knot over this. yes, necros can do this - as a downside we can't stand on parapets in keeps and towers - well we can - but because our pet trails a little behind us, we can't get the pet to stand on the edge and thus cast spells down at bad guys because we can't get LoS - enemies in the courtyards beneath seem to have no such trouble getting LOS to our pets however - i personally consider this to be a much greater inconvenience than any benefit you seems to be obsessing over and i'd gladly swap


EDIT: fixed 2 typos

Isn't 1.5 seconds the cap on cast speed?

 

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1.5 is the cap on melee swing speed.


Casting is capped at 40% of delve.

 

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Honestly Fig, I'm not worried or complaining about damage versus caste speeds. Lots of people were complaining about animist bombers SP and so it was fixed. Why not Necro's? Why are the immune to a fix? For the record I play Albs & Mids, and I also have a Necro (for the last 6+ years). Necro's cast speed can be fixed to be more in line with a typical caster if they fix the SP. Furthermore, my biggest beef with the class is the LoS exploits & high ABS/CC immunity. Think about it, what other class in the game that can be CC immune all the time, carry insane ABS, and have the ability to walk into camped courtyards/floors/lord's rooms/roofs and be untouchable? I'm 100% in favor of pathing fixes-this exists for all realms, so yeah, fix it!

stupid guy who thinks necros are OP posted:

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Let's add in ALL their toys/exploits/bugs shall we:

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They have a 179 delve baseline LT. With an extra 15% spell pierce that doesn't even equal the delve damage of a spec nuke with no +damage or resist pierce factored in. That means that every caster that has access to a spec nuke can outdamage a freecasting necro with no +damage or +pierce in that caster's template. So... you're dumb.

They have access to a pet that is immune to roots and mezzes. Ever heard of a stun?

So remind me, where are these so called facts? All I see is someone who knows nothing about what he's ranting about and trying to pass off his lack of knowledge as acceptable because of "facts" that he has provided no evidence for.

 

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>> I'm not worried or complaining about damage versus caste speeds.

/boggle

i mean really, is there a /ultra-mega-mega-man-boggle option? whatever the highest level of /boggle exists, i want that one +1

you stated previously

>> And it's a known fact necro's are hitting AS hard if not harder than most casters in the game

my last post was to dispute that claim with hard numbers - yourself and everyone else that complains about necros seem to think that necros hit hard and that the 25% SP is to blame for this - i claim necros have clearly the worst dps of any caster in the game - do you still dispute this? if so, please provide some numbers of you own to back this claim up - i'm sick of people b*t*hing about how hard necros hit when that is clearly not the case - yes, the 25%SP means we hit for more per nuke than other casters - but other casters hit almost twice for every hit from a necro - they hit for smaller numbers, but they would need to do half the damage of a necro per hit just to do the same dps - as my numbers show they do way more than that - classes that can debuff their own damage type are even worse


>> Lots of people were complaining about animist bombers SP and so it was fixed. Why not Necro's

cast speed mate - it's all about cast speed - animists could cast their bombs at almost twice the rate a necro can - animists had 25%SP AND good cast speed - thus they got "fixed" - necros still have their crap cast speed - thus they haven't been fixed because their dps is already total turd

i maintain that the 25%SP is a not a bug - it's a conscious decision by mythic to give necros a little more dps without totally breaking FP

in my previous post i used ice wizzies for comparison - level 48 spec DD+debuff has 199 delve - i quoted 159.2 damage per nuke with the cold debuff added in - level 48 arborial mastery DD bomber has a delve of 225 and same base cast speed of 2.8 - using the same calcs as my previous post of 50% resist on the target dummy, and the animist having 10%SP then each nuke from an animist will do (225*0.60%=) 135 damage for (20*135/22=) 122.7 dps

but wait, there's more - base creeping path has a DD with delve 159 that debuffs body resist by 10% - so if an animist hit that 1st then the 1st hit would be (159*0.60%=) 95.4 and then the subsequent bombers would now be (225*0.70%=) 157.5 damage per bomber for a total of ((95.4 + 19*157.5)/22=) 140.36 dps

slightly less than an ice wizzie (142.91), but still over twice (140.36/67.125=2.09) the dps of a necro

let's compare what life was like when they had 25% SP

the DD+debuff is not a bomber so would remain unchanged - the bombers would be (225*0.85%=) 191.25 damage per bomber for a total of ((95.4 + 19*191.25)/22=) 169.51 dps! that's over two and a half times (169.51/67.125=2.53) the dps of a necro and a 19% (169.51/142.91=1.19) increase over an ice wizzie

so to answer your question

>> animist bombers SP ... was fixed. Why not Necro's

in short, animist SP got nerfed because their dps was too high - necros have not been nerfed because their dps is not

if you think my numbers and assumptions are wrong or misleading, please provide your own assessment, but make sure you back it up with numbers - this discussion already has enough baseless opinions


>> Necro's cast speed can be fixed to be more in line with a typical caster if they fix the SP.

no it can't.

well - OK - mythic *COULD* lower necro cast speed and then also lower the SP - but if necros cast faster then FP - which is already arguably a little on the OP side - will become totally broken. this is not an option as the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would result from necros being able to cast 6 spells every 30 seconds without interruption would be so loud, long dead historical figures would rise from their graves and go on a killing spree to shut everyone up

25%SP is a good compromise - FP doesn't become totally broken and necros get a little extra dps, but still crap compared to other casters

>> high ABS/CC immunity.

it was a long time ago, but i seem to vaguely recall that necros were given a pet only clear-mez spell because as level 44 mobs (they were still level 44 at the time i think), mez lasted freeking forever, the status colour in the group window didn't (and still doesn't) change colour to let group mates know they were mezzed, and so every fight for a necro was basically spent mezzed unable to do anything. so they got a demezz and thus became at that point one of the few classes that could clear mez from themselves (classes with charm songs could also do it as well with a diferrent mechanism.)

this almost made them in effect immune to mez. the only difference now is that necros don't have to stop and cast a spell.

i'm not sure, but i assume immunity to root/snare was added as a bonus to help with pathing issues - pathing is already a total PITA, the pet pathing off to nowhere would be even worse at 50% speed. i personally would live without the immunities - their only value to me is when i'm soloing and get run over by FGs - the immunity means i can often sprint to a tower or keep safely which is nice

as to ABS, that is a trade off - necros have high survivability but they pay for it by
- having crap dps
- only having a 50% snare for CC - they are the only caster class without at least one of the big 3 CC - stun, mez or root (aka 99% snare) - quite a few caster classes have 2 - necros have none
- being the only pet class without access to juggernaunt and convoker ML9
- being the only class that can't benefit from items with defensive abilities (eg medal of honour, ring of arcane gestures/strength etc)
- being the only class that doesn't doesn't benefit from reverse procs on armour
- being the only class that doesn't benefit from healing pots
- being the only class without access to a resist RA

quite simply, if you want to downgrade necro ABS, you need to address these issues.


>> have the ability to walk into camped courtyards/floors/lord's rooms/roofs and be untouchable?

as previously stated i'm not sure why this upsets you as much as it apparently does - i would gladly swap this ability to be able to nuke from parapets

Last I heard the bone dancer pets still benefited from the 25% spell pierce as well. but who uses the casting pets anyways right?

All I know is that I've never been nuked by a list caster (outside of bolts) for a consistent 800+ like I get nuked by necros for, but I am not complaining because I can just as easily kill them as they can kill me.


Fignacious your explanation makes a lot of sense but paper DAoC is paper DAoC . I was getting zerged by Hib casters last night and the hardest I was hit was from a animist bomber and it hit in the 500s with a crit, non-crits it was in the 400s. Necros consistently nuke hit me for a lot more then that, granted it comes with a lot of disadvantages which is why their sustained DPS is crap.


In the end, this whole thread is just a QQ because someone got added on by a necro and it nuked them really hard, if it were any other caster it would have been just shrugged off as being added/zerged/etc.

Necro's are not fire wizzy's. They are Tanks with lifetap nukes.


Necro's shouldnt have more melee/spell abs than a tank, do more spell damage than a caster AND be CC immune. That is the epitome of having your cake and eating it too.


Here comes the Necro /whine, "but you can kite and kill a necro so easy. 2 archers can down a necro in seconds /cry."


Response: Thats the way it is for EVERY class. All classes are easy to kill when you know how. A heavy tank can be kited and killed just as easily. 2 archers and the solo tank is done. There is no excuse for necro to have every advantage.

 

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With all of that great stuff you mentioned you forgot to talk about the bad parts of the Necro.

Oversight or typical Necro whine with no actual knowledge on the class?

 

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