So, I'll agree to some of what you said. But these are real numbers. As I saw, a Heretic even 50 flex still won't equal a Thane in 2 hand mode, but are almost identical in WS 1 hand. Of course this is Drawf to inconnu races, so If I went Norse to Mino, may change things a bit. Also notice a 37 sword specced Minstrel has more WS than my Thane in 1 hand AND 2 hand modes. Only when I spec to 50 sword do I have the advantage. Same could be said for the reaver (only 50 sword trumped 44 flex). I don't have a Pally to test or any Hibs for that matter. But I wanted to provide real live data.
Just for S&G I tested my 50FW Mino Mauler with 382 strength = 1822 WS.
I need to do more digging for accurate WS tables, but the above gives an idea to some of it. Also shows anything under 50 specced weapon and the Thane is just horrible in WS where as other classes don't necessarily need all into 50.
EDIT-aside from the tic, I used realm buffs to keep everything on even keel
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
DemonicXH posted: They just need something that would make them wanted in groups.
This is not class-specific :
bodyguards are impopular on all 3 realms. Guess why wardens and friars were moved to heals, and why VWs, pre-cele pallies and many other BGs are not really desired. All that is needed currently is pure casters (on debuff) and rupt bots (which saves banelords from uselessness). Thanes have it even worse with other realms not having the best tank potential either.
i would personally consider that removing stat/haste debuffs from mages, or making them like 2 min-RUT, 15s duration would be a huge step in favor of tanks, and as a result, in favor of BGs/devensive tanks. There would probably be other changes needed, too, but unless you make them brokenly op, thanes won't find a group slot in the current state of the game.
edit @ up : So you're saying your 37+x spec mincer has more weaponskill than your 34+y spec thane ? What about comparing similar data ?
Stealthers dont display the correct ws in the paper doll due to their advanced ws lines,so I dont remember where in the hell they go.
If I remember correctly,that while the ws displayed in the paper doll my be higher on say a thane or warden than one of the classes from the tables above,the actual table determines some important stuff as well.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
The mauler I wasnt sure of and was going to verify on live that the charplan was right,but my accounts are closed so no clue where it sits for absolute sure.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
Grish11 posted: Stealthers dont display the correct ws in the paper doll due to their advanced ws lines,so I dont remember where in the hell they go.
Assassins also go with the Mins, Heretic, Archer, etc. as do Friars. So again, most hybrids that either have utility/heals and/or ranged damage are in this category, which is where Thanes are. A big advantage being their ability to wield 2h though, that most others in this category can't.
The more tank-like hybrids such a Paladin, Reaver, and Champion are one tier higher.
This is exactly the grouping that the German site gives, as well as Charplan, and I'll take their word over any single person that doesn't provide exact details down to a T. (For example, the Minstrel having more WS then a Thane is pretty unlikely. You probably missed an aspect somewhere I bet. The fact that your WS changes when you swap to 2h indicates to me that you're missing one important aspect.)
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
Do people realize that the paperdoll WS is NOT an accurate reflection of true WS?
@ Windwalkr: Just because "most" ranged hybrids are on a low WS tier doesn't mean Thanes should be. Look at VW's for proof that this theory is BS. Also, note that Thanes are the ONLY class on that WS tier without stealth/heals.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
Phlei posted: Do people realize that the paperdoll WS is NOT an accurate reflection of true WS?
@ Windwalkr: Just because "most" ranged hybrids are on a low WS tier doesn't mean Thanes should be. Look at VW's for proof that this theory is BS. Also, note that Thanes are the ONLY class on that WS tier without stealth/heals.
Don't bring up VW. This class is a total gimp compared to a thane, if you compare their group utility. Yes, I'm not talking about solo.
Thane is 3x times harder to kill: Chain AF, Large Shield, Engage, Melee anytime stun, unshearable 27% armor absorbation (yes, you can actually remove VWs AF and absorb buffs).
Orrime said it right: "you're picking each aspect of thanes, and comparing it to the best class at this".
See, the only thing VW has better then a Thane is WS and melee damage. Other things like survivability, group utility, CC, interrupts, DDs and ability to get into grp are MUCH better on Thane.
IMO Thanes also have a higher damage via DDs and how long they can stand on a field without insta-death like VW. My logic is when you live longer you have more time for doing damage. Therefore Thanes do more damage through the fight.
Why no one said "I want BD/Minst pets on a Thane! They have it, then why not my Thane?!?!?!?!?!"?
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
Phlei posted: @ Windwalkr: Just because "most" ranged hybrids are on a low WS tier doesn't mean Thanes should be. Look at VW's for proof that this theory is BS. Also, note that Thanes are the ONLY class on that WS tier without stealth/heals.
Ok, so until now your case was "most hybrids got it much better than us so we need moar" and now, just because most of the ranged hybrids are just like you doesn't mean you don't have to get moar ?
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
HeyMadman posted:
Phlei posted: Do people realize that the paperdoll WS is NOT an accurate reflection of true WS?
@ Windwalkr: Just because "most" ranged hybrids are on a low WS tier doesn't mean Thanes should be. Look at VW's for proof that this theory is BS. Also, note that Thanes are the ONLY class on that WS tier without stealth/heals.
Don't bring up VW. This class is a total gimp compared to a thane, if you compare their group utility. Yes, I'm not talking about solo.
Thane is 3x times harder to kill: Chain AF, Large Shield, Engage, Melee anytime stun, unshearable 27% armor absorbation (yes, you can actually remove VWs AF and absorb buffs).
Orrime said it right: "you're picking each aspect of thanes, and comparing it to the best class at this".
See, the only thing VW has better then a Thane is WS and melee damage. Other things like survivability, group utility, CC, interrupts, DDs and ability to get into grp are MUCH better on Thane.
IMO Thanes also have a higher damage via DDs and how long they can stand on a field without insta-death like VW. My logic is when you live longer you have more time for doing damage. Therefore Thanes do more damage through the fight.
Why no one said "I want BD/Minst pets on a Thane! They have it, then why not my Thane?!?!?!?!?!"?
The "only" thing they have better is WS and melee damage. I agree, their damage is VERY high.
How are survivability, group utility, CC interrupts, and ability to get groups MUCH better on thane? VW's have better defense, a LT, defensive RR5, nearly as good interrupt capability (insta, ST, AoE's), and MUCH better CC (hello disease (snare) and root style) If templated for casting it's probably near as good as thanes (they both have templating problems). In nearly ALL scenario's a VW will live longer.
Therefore, using your logic, a VW will do more damage since they live longer.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:02amSubject:
OMG thanes need love!
orrime posted:
Phlei posted: @ Windwalkr: Just because "most" ranged hybrids are on a low WS tier doesn't mean Thanes should be. Look at VW's for proof that this theory is BS. Also, note that Thanes are the ONLY class on that WS tier without stealth/heals.
Ok, so until now your case was "most hybrids got it much better than us so we need moar" and now, just because most of the ranged hybrids are just like you doesn't mean you don't have to get moar ?
LTR. stealthers/healers aren't really the same as a melee hybrid.
