I would even go as far as to say that no non-thane hybrid has it worst than thanes.


You're wondering why we're mocking your claims : you're picking each aspect of thanes, and comparing it to the best class at this. I may be wrong but I don't see why you should exclude healers/lifetap casters from the comparison.

VWs are pretty terrible too : they have less survivability than a hero, less magic damage than a wizard, less melee damage than a savage and they don't interrupt like a mincer.


Now when you look at thanes and compare them to other hybrids (and I think hybrid tics and walkers are the closest calls), you see that they face similar problems (they have shitty temps and their archetype (defensive/peel tank, damage dealer) is obsolete).

because Thanes dont have heals or lifetaps. Either of those things would fix the thane. But again we know those wont happen.

 

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No, they won't.
You can't fix already good class.

I wonder which healing hybrid has higher HP then a thane?!
Warrior?!

Well so far on the Thane it's been pretty rough. Any solo caster is pretty much fodder, but I don't see alot of those around. Assassins are a PITA but they are for any class so it's nothing new.

I wish I got groups cause I know I could be an insane interrupter also with decent dmg to boot and ok defenses in group situations. Problem is that they don't do anything that another class can't already do better.

Casting will never amount to a caster

Melee will never amount to a savage/zerk/valk/warrior

We have no healing capabilities

Peeling we are probably on par with the rest really

Interupts we are a bit ahead of the game, but really to continuously interrupt we would need banelord and another insta to keep interupts up long enough to keep them cycling without standing still and nuking.

I love the idea of a thane, I just wish they were given some sort of better group ability component.

Give them (and another class in alb/hib) charge, aoe disease cast, mezz dampening, endo reduction chant, or some sort of resist piercing that is decent and not the current form. Just giving them one of these will not make them OP in any way but would improve them in groups drastically.

I don't really care about solo anymore on them cause I know that the game is not centered around solo play. They do have the ability to solo well however imo if they have rr5+ on them.

Played a friends r8 thane and I tore stuff up pretty well other than the occasional high rr assassin.

 

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Well there are no hybrids in the game that do something better compared to a pure class, except Necro, Heretic and Valk.

The hybrids rock because of versatility and Thane has a lot of it.

If you want to be taken seriously in an argument, then you have to stop taking things out of context or simply read a little closer please. First of all, the point I was clearly making was not to directly compare Thanes with Heretics, but rather was a counter point to the claims that Thanes have significantly tougher templating issues then many/most other true hybrids do. Secondly --and more importantly-- I was talking about a HYBRID Heretic and you're clearly not, or if you are you simply don't have a clue about templating them.

A pure Rej/Enh Heretic is a LOT easier to template, because you don't have to worry about STR, shield, or melee bonuses. This is absolutely the same as making a pure caster Thane template, and gimping down STR, shield, melee ToAs, and/or parry spec. At that point you too can reach 2400+ HPs in chain and be a nuker, and still have Slam all the same. However, you're not nearly as much of a true hybrid, and this is no different for a Heretic that chooses to ignore melee completely. (Which most do, certainly those that run in FGs!) A Heretic that wants to do somewhat passable melee damage has to spec 34 Flex, and that is a (DEX+STR)/2 weapons line.

You also need to stop pointing to all the strengths of everyone else's class, and point out only the weaknesses of your own. This is typical of whining rather then debating intelligently.

Obviously Heretics are more group friendly, but if you wanted heals or group utility then you shouldn't have rolled a Thane.





First of all, I'm not the one whining about anything or any class. I'm just countering your whines about your class with some facts. I am making some comparisons to other classes/specs that bear at least some comparable abilities to the Thane. Smiters and Thanes were traditionally viewed very similarly a long time ago when Ticks & VWs didn't even exist, because both are hybrid nukers in chain. One simply was healer-based and thus has very terrible melee/defense, while the other is melee based and thus has FAR more melee & defense.

Again, I don't think the Thane is lacking in anything that it's fundamental design promises. They are every bit as competent casting-wise as any other hybrid melee/nuker, and equally are every bit as competent in melee as any hybrid melee/nuker. If you're not happy with the basic concept because you'd like to be more group friendly, then pick a class that was designed to be more group friendly!





Prove it please! I see this claimed here all the time, but I see no actual evidence being presented outside of cases where people *choose* to lower HPs in their temps in order to make a stronger hybrid melee/caster temp. Show me one hybrid Heretic temp that doesn't make similar sacrifices all over the place! A small difference being they need HPs more then Thanes, because they have no IP to compensate in tough situations. So they tend to run with low or no melee speed, low STR, and/or lower spell damage & range. Thanes are on the same CON:HP formula as any hybrid, they're on the same WS table as most hybrids (excluding Paladins & VWs), and they have plenty of things going for them that are both unique and powerful...they're just not all that group friendly, a curse that other classes & specs share.





lol, yeah that's not going to happen. Again you're giving into class envy, my Smiter would love to have 1700 range too, an instant 1500 range interrupt is something we've asked for for years (but 1650 is good too! lol), and I'd definitely give up 26 Rejuv in favor of a large spec shield, parry, DD proccing styles, 2.0x spec points, etc.

Arguing with a Smiter over who is the gimpier is a bit silly, and just shows how deep you've fallen into the "grass is always greener" trap. How many Smiters do you see in groups? How many do you see out solo? More then Thanes? I doubt it. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but neither is particularly wanted in groups. (At least as a Thane in a group you don't get lambasted for speccing & playing the "wrong" way, and constantly have to explain yourself every time you join a group...that is if you get one. They probably thought you were a Cleric, and are glad when you leave the group...or just outright kick you.)

One quick question though, are you actually having issues beating Smiters on a Thane? Point made.

You should never lose to a Smiter on a Thane 1v1.

I'll end with a more positive note though. I don't have anything against Thane's getting some improvements & boosts! I'm just arguing against what I believe to be invalid points. If Thanes get boosts tomorrow I'll be happy for them, I realize it's not a very popular class, but I have a real hard time finding any specific thing to fix that fits into the design of the class, or wouldn't clearly OP it. (Or be fairly irrelevant to its performance.)

 

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Wind,

Actually Thanes are on a lower WS table than other Hybrids. Thanes are on the seer weapon table. And we can't compare that to a Tic cause a tic is an acolyte in base form. But compared to VW, Reavers, and other hybrids out there, yes, Thanes have a weak WS table thats definitely not on par.

I'll agree on this...I know my Heretic and my Thane have very similar HP with similar templated CON/HP. Both have 2400+ fully buffed. However, my Thane is dwarf so he gets a boost to starting CON which helps him.

Do you have any source that confirms Thanes WS being below that of most other hybrids in the game? Here is a German DAoC Wiki site that lists all the WS "tables" (factors actually) for the different classes:

http://daocpedia.de/index.php/Schadenstabelle

As you will notice on that list (click links to see pics to figure out whats what), Mids are always 1 tier higher in the WS factor then the other realms. That makes a lot of sense since they're the melee realm. So sure Thane's are on "Seer" WS factor, but that's not Cleric/Druid WS factor! Seer WS factor is basically the same as Minstrels, Heretics, Assassins, Archers melee (aside from Hunters), Wardens, and yes even Friars!

Charplan also confirms this:

1) Norse Thane with 50 Sword and 371STR has 1582WS
2) Minotaur Heretic with 50 Crush, or a Highlander Minstrel with 50 Slash and 371STR both have 1591WS (Some of that had to come from AugSTR which factors in a bit differently then natural STR I believe.)

As much as Thanes are lamenting their lower HPs, they sure seem to be forgetting about their higher STR. I just noticed how huge that difference was when I was checking WS in Charplan and realized it was hard to get 371 STR on a Heretic/Minstrel without adding +18STR, and AugSTR4! (While on the Thane I just picked Norse and it was 371 fully buffed w/o adding a thing.)

Let's look at a more realistic STR comparison. A Briton Paladins base STR is 75 at level 50. A Dwarf's (also 60 base racial STR) is 105! That's a full 30 STR more then a Paladin, but you're griping because that same Paladin has more HPs since their primary raising stat is CON? That's absurd! Frankly it sounds like you want your cake and you want to eat it too. (Much like wanting on-par WS with Reavers, Paladins, and Champions...all basically purely melee range classes.)


Edit: Just confirmed in Charplan that a Highlander Minstrel with 356 STR and 50 Slash has the exact same 1540WS that a Frostalf Thane has with 50 Sword & 356STR.


Lastly, I have a hard time believing that any of the Thanes real issues are solved with 100 more HPs and/or a 0.1 bump in WS factor (bringing them to Reaver, Paladin, and Champ WS) even if these were justified, but clearly they really are not considering the considerable ranged and even ranged AE potential that Thane's clearly have over these 3 classes.


So personally if I was looking to get Thanes improvements, I wouldn't be looking at melee.

 

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They just need something that would make them wanted in groups.

I don't know what that is but I am sure that will solve a lot of QQing.

My suggestion is end chant and/or make the self melee proc buff effect group with a proximity requirement.