Hmm interesting, I will have to do some runs with decent WoC.


The 150 radius just makes me cringe but it is true that I get a TON of melee aggro on my thane. Sure it will decimate a stealther or 3 in melee. But all the archers will be fine and I wonder if its strong enough to make a dent in a Heavy tank.


Thats my real problem in pvp now-a-days. Ya the stealth zerg sucks but Duo vs any hib/alb duo with a heavytank and likely celerity, my thane drops before the 8sec slam is done. The Pbae astral pets keep my BG'd caster from doing much either. Those things are OP, and they seem to be something a thane should have, not other toons heh.


I also dont think thanes should be balanced around 1 expensive timered RA ability. They need a lot more than 1/2 a reaver bomb. And more versatility in defense, gear, and artifact availability if they are truely a "hybrid".

 

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Look, I'm not saying that WoC is a lock box sent down from the heavens to make the Thane class playable. The fact of the matter is that they're a competent caster with useful group presence and they have access to the tools that will give them an edge in close quarters combat.

Their melee standing alone is lacking, but they have access to the RAs to make up for that, and as often as people try to discard the "RAs are part of a class's makeup" argument... RAs are part of a class's makeup. It's disingenuous to compare two classes without looking at everything they can bring to the table.

 

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You're discarding the range and optional AE advantage way too easily. Also, if you're getting nuked for 500 by a VW, you need to template your toon. Are you serious about MoM7 & ACU7? lol, that's pretty far fetched to make an argument with. That's 40 RPs worth of passives that will do basically the same thing for a Thanes DDs.

As stated above, groups will generally prefer the Thanes casting abilities over the VWs. The pet clearing and long range make all the difference, and they're a better BG to boot.

You also dismiss DH, RR5, and WoC too easily as dumping tool in solo play; the best defense is a strong offense! You don't have to have WoC5 either for it to be useful, it's actually a well spent 5pt RA too just to add a bite to your PBAE DD & RR5 in a dump.

 

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I didn't dismiss range. It is a substitute for lifetap. Just as the delve is supposed to be a substitute for acuity buff. AE and pet clears is a little laughable, at the center after debuff AE hammers do maybe 300 damage. Anywhere else it is often under 100. You may be able to clear theurg pets or Zo's only if you aren't interrupted. No quick cast.

Why wouldn't a vale go high mom/acuity? All thanes do. What do vales need to spend points on? 34% energy and 20% second line, the rr8 vale in my guild hits me for 420 before crits and 500 with immolation. You could argue he is a "caster vale" but his melee is superior as well. And watchout for the MoC lifetap when he gets low hp. I'd love a way to heal up on thane.

 

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Ahh so I guess you RR8 VW friend has no need for silly things like AugDEX5+ (to reach cap casting speed on his LT), Purge2+ (does he solo AT ALL?), or even silly things like MoF2 & LW1?

With any reasonable level of MoC he also wouldn't have IP2+ at that RR with 40pts in AugACU & MoM, so your Thane could just use those points to IP instead and then you have your means to heal in combat.

Considering the health return on their regular LT, anything less then MoC3 would be a complete waste and even at 3 it's not going to do well for them. (Because while you cast you can't evade or parry, which means you're getting hit every round and will have a really hard time keeping up with inc damage...especially when counting run-throughs.)

As a Thane you could also just drop ST1 and MoC3 for about the same effect, instead of healing you're AE chain stunning anything that attacks you in melee, and also reset their immunity to boot.

I don't think VWs have any more free RPs laying around then anyone else, and if you're wasting 40 RPs on a <RR9 Thane for 2 tier7 passives, then quite frankly I know why you're so convinced Thanes are gimp.

You can easily save 20 of those 40 points and lose only a smidgen of DD damage, but put those points into 2 other passives and you'd maybe complain less about Thane's melee abilities. As someone else said above, there is really little reason you should be losing to a VW in melee as a competent Thane.

Or simply invest into WP5 instead, dropping the others down to tier 5, and you'll still match the DPS then the guy with AugAcu7 & MoM7 but still have 10 RPs to spare.


And yes, clearing Theurg & Zo pets alone is a big boon in groups when no other class in the group can or is free to, not to mention you left out shroom fields...and quite obviously you wouldn't use the AE DD on single pets anyway.

 

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Life goes on, but will this game?

 

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I've agreed a bit with Stanley, but he just complains and exaggerates way too much.

You'll be hitting pets for more than 300. They are often times blue con with no resists. Big difference than against a level 50 player with template and casted resists.

No hybrid is going to have aa7/mom7 unless they are RR12. If they do, they are wasting spec points that could be used on rounding out weaker area's (melee/defense/timers). AFAIK VW's should have like MoParry 3-4+. MoC on a VW, lol...

Oh, and Wind, a Thane will not compete with a VW in melee, unless the thane is 50 weapon, templated for it and the VW sucks. VW has much higher growth rates, WS, and as good or better DD's on styles. Unless you mean the Thane timer dumps and gets lucky, since I wouldn't want to to miss/parry that DH on a VW with LT, snare, disease, etc. edit: and killer melee DPS.

TL;DR?

Summary: you guys both don't know what the hell you are talking about.

 

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^ Significantly stronger layered defenses, EZ off-block stuns, and the Thane also has a pretty darn good spike damage dump during an unpurged stun. It should come down to whomever gets an unpurged stun in first, and the Thane should almost always win that battle to get the second stun in. (Between having easier to land stuns, and ST to possible reset immunity.)

Funny how you agree with basically all I say, then come with a rather myopic focus on potential melee DPS output, and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

A VWs melee defense is not as good as a Thanes (well at least those who don't waste 40pts on DD passives lol), and worse they're completely dependent on positionals to do damage in melee. Positional chains are rather hard to land on a layered defenses class with a clue. They also have no ASR styles, and very limited weapons choices. The Thane has 2 instant DDs for additional damage in melee, and a nice anytime with magic damage proc to use while in S/S mode, better weapon choices, and an EZ frontal ASR style that will tone down the VWs swing-speed significantly.

The VW has what for anytimes? Jack squat. So yeah, when you're stun immune for 35-40s he's not landing many 2 part chains on a Parry + Shield class with a clue.

He can't even root kite you like he will other melee classes, so Thane's are actually better equipped then most to handle a VW in 1v1. Just don't get stunned with your Purge down, that's the cheese that for some dumb reason VWs were allowed to retain when most others lost it. (but Thanes can do the same at least occasionally, but requires some RR)

 

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Your post was actually somewhat close to what I think, i was thinking of some of your past posts too.

This post is pretty close too. Though Vales have decent layered defense once they get some MoParry, which, afaik, is pretty high on the priority list for solo. Like VW's, thanes need a lot of Moblock/parry to get good defense and is probably lower priority.

Weird how this has become Thane vs. VW, lol. Both are strong classes in certain situations. I do think Thanes are stronger than Stanley makes out.

 

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A VW is not as defensive as a Thane. If you're talking about layered defense you're talking about more than one form. VWs have parry and evade right? I'm not sure what level of evade they get tbh but I'm pretty sure they're no Savages. After that, they have just as much parry as a Thane but without a shield. They also wear cloth, but I guess the ABS buff makes up for that a little bit. The best defense for Vales is either a good offense or kiting, and you can't kite a Thane.

Wind is absolutely right though. In almost 10 years of playing the one fact that hasn't changed is that whoever gets their stun to stick first usually wins the fight (unless we're talking about heavy tanks dueling or anyone fighting a Warden). Anyway, in this regard, Thane's still have the advantage thanks to ST restun immunity gayness.

 

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