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Topic:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm [Locked] |
Cawlin  Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
slythetove posted:
It's beyond frustrating to try to help folks, then have them ignore you and yell at you when they die.
Heh. Here you've re-discovered why many of the so-called "elitist pricks" don't PuG or why they join "choosy" guilds, and generally don't spend time playing with MOST of the wow playing community outside of their guild.
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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chaddlock  Posts: 144
Registered: 2008-5-22 10:36:48
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
People here do take the time to read at least about the game, in between the flaming 
Believe it or not that is better then what 90% of the WoW population does. Try being on a high pop server, player capped guild and try not to gouge your eyes out over seeing the same question about 100 times in the same night... of which the information was available months ago. Blaaaa
My MOTD after 4.0.1 went live was:
Need an quick answer?! Go to MMO champ, tankspot, EJ, WoWhead for your simple question/simple answers!
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"Shhhhh... do you smell that?"
So... Agent skully... funny running into you here  |
Arcilite_I Title: VN's Most Wanted
Posts: 1,260
Registered: 2002-1-27 08:46:24
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
GutterSludge posted:
I think this thread is a prime example of the people/players that at least try to stay informed, and the masses that never check a board, forum, or any other site related to WOW.
I know we give each other a real hard time about a lot of different issues, playstyles, and general game attitude, but I can say without a doubt I would prefer anyone who posts and/or at least reads these boards in my group over just about anyone else.
We have known these changes were coming, discussed (and are still discussing) them, and at least attempt to adapt to them as time goes by.
What we (Sly for example) are running in to is the players that never do any of the above, who honestly do not have a clue as to what is going on.
Sly, this isn't your fault. You are just 4 steps ahead of the average mouth breather...and it is going to take some time for them to catch up.
Well said Gutter. Couldn't agree more.
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PvPing since 1977
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The_Korrigan  Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 955
Registered: 2001-7-17 03:51:32
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
Cawlin posted:
slythetove posted:
It's beyond frustrating to try to help folks, then have them ignore you and yell at you when they die.
Heh. Here you've re-discovered why many of the so-called "elitist pricks" don't PuG or why they join "choosy" guilds, and generally don't spend time playing with MOST of the wow playing community outside of their guild.
'nuff said.
-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
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Cawlin Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
GutterSludge posted:
I know we give each other a real hard time about a lot of different issues, playstyles, and general game attitude, but I can say without a doubt I would prefer anyone who posts and/or at least reads these boards in my group over just about anyone else.
Does this mean you would even invite ME to your groups Gutter?
-----signature-----
If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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The_Korrigan Title: Scrub Buster
Posts: 955
Registered: 2001-7-17 03:51:32
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
I wouldn't invite him, for sure. Based ONLY on what I've read here about him that he told us himself, of course. He's the prototype of the worst PUG member.
-----signature-----
SWTOR: 50 Jedi Shadow (Tank), 50 Sith Marauder (Annihilation).
LOTRO: Lifetime account, playing very casually.
WoW: Both accounts canceled for now.
GW2: Future Warrior.
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
Yah Cawlin, I would.
Korrigan, I expected that from you.
Funny thing is, If we were to group together, you would change your mind in a heartbeat. (Especially since you would have no clue it was me).
After a few runs, I would have to cordially decline your guild invite.
-----signature-----
Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"  ea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother. |
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
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I can share some sympathy for healers, I used to heal a little in wrath and am a tiny bit scared to heal in cata. It's true players have learned that dps is all that matters. In cata, its dps avoidance or lack of taking damage that is the more impressive stat. I have to agree though with the severe punishment to healers. It may not be fun but it makes healers earn their kudos as well. It's bad groups that always instinctively blame healers though or ones that forgot about their cc's.
In pve healers in wrath could easily outheal any and almost all heroic damage. This made heroics easy, tedious, and boring. Now that healers have to work the upside is cc becomes useful again. I don't believe I used a single Sap on my main rogue throughout the entirety of wrath in pve content. It also makes healer stats actually have to focus on mana regen. I'm sorry I was literally sick of seeing healers in wrath pull off 8-10k hps heals and not seeing their mana flinch.
The biggest reason I applaud this change is the fact that healers in pvp were godly. A healer and a tank took at least a party of 5 if not more. THAT IS NOT BALANCE. Not only that, but the fact healers alone could simply not learn how to die. Countless efforts on various toons with decent to good pvp/dps gear unloading all rage/energy on healers just to end up with the fight having them at 100% health and 99% mana. That's more than a little disgusting. The old way resilience aided people made healers even a worse terror on the bg. Let's help healers by reducing damage and at the same time kill off the dps's crit chance but not a healers(albeit perhaps pathetic). Of course I have a similar complaint with all mana users but at least the effects of a bar of rage/energy can be seen. I'm sorry but a geared person unloading a very slow small and limited resource(rage/energy) should at the very least make a dent in the person using a very sizeable resource bar if not in health than at least in mana.
Thanks to cataclysm healers are killable again and so are the targets they so desperately defend. In wrath battlegrounds were not won at all by the quality of dps but the domination of your healing classes. NO MORE!
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
slythetove posted:
Cawlin posted:
slythetove posted:
Classic WoW and Burning Crusade - CC was required, and when it wasn't there the penalty was death. It was swift. It was so fast nobody (ok almost nobody) turned and blamed the healer immediately. The reason is because it was so obvious to them that everything was wrong from the beginning because they were immediately DEAD.
Wrath - Players learned to forget. They forgot CC, they forgot kill order, they forgot focus fire, and then ... well some just never knew these concepts at all.
In Cataclysm - The pull now requires CC, but they don't always know it. The pull happens, and I can tell you immediately we're going to die, because healers know the healing model does not allow them to output enough heals to keep the party alive with the damage that is coming; HOWEVER, the key difference is the tank and DPS do not recognize this! Since they live for sometimes 15 to 45 seconds they have time to watch their health slowly go down. They don't realize the healer is doing everything they can to save them because their bars never go up. They believe they've actually done their jobs, and died anyway.
Thus, they rage at the healer.
This is the current model. This is not good. This is not fun for a healer to have to explain CC and focus fire, and kill orders to people who don't to listen, and who don't understand why the healer is explaining it. Worst of all are the many times you get yelled at for trying to explain. They don't believe you. They just blame you.
This dawned on me last night when, after days of fighting uphill to heal and change, and adapt, and still not having any fun. It came to me after I did not even log in to play, because it's so not fun.
--Sly
I've only skimmed what you posted but from what I gather, I agree wholeheartedly.
Healers are probably *decent* (as opposed to "fine" , it's the players who are freaking out over having to L2P again.
Honestly in my opinion, it's a good model. Unfortunately the healers will have to bear the brunt of it because of WOTLK habits that have to be unlearned, but otherwise it's a good model. Eventually people will L2P if only by virtue of the fact that healers will be even more scarce than tanks.
Stiff upper lip and all that Sly. Get some regular friends or guildies and run with them. CC EVERYTHING and gradually reduce CC until you find the point at which you can no longer heal the damage coming in. Seriously, this model will make everyone a better player.
I want to agree, I do. I was excited for the theoretical model. In practice it's not working out to the stated goal as currently implemented. The issue is healing throughput is reduced dramatically (as a function of health vs incoming damage) and healers are constricted to casting 95% or more of the time their single "efficient" healing spell. To do otherwise is to drain your mana bar in under 6 casts. It's very boring and un-fulfilling. Never before have I had less choice in what to do. The priest spell Heal takes 2.2 seconds to cast and does a trivial amount of healing per cast compared to health pools. This means you just have to spam cast it. If you vary from this spell for more than a couple of global cooldowns you are punished severely ie wipes / deaths. Incoming tank damage alone is tuned right now to require nearly constant casting of this spell on the tank (after setting up your renew and getting into your chakra), and if the DPS doesn't do their job you can't save them most of the time because the tank will die if you get 2 GCDs behind.
Healing has gotten even less dynamic and even more monotonous. The theoretical model was "we want healers to make choices", but the actual implementation is "healers have no choice except to cast this one spell 95% of the time or wipe".
In PvE mana efficiency tuning will probably allow things to work, but they may or may not be fun (it remains to be seen). In PvP mana efficiency tuning doesn't solve the problem of "I have no choice but to stand here casting long spells that any monkey with an IQ over 37 can interrupt."
With "we want pvp to last longer" philosophy which I am all for, what they actually did was make healing less effective and made damage higher. This theoretical actually just worked out to "PvP is somewhat longer, but the outcome was already decided before you started if you're a healing priest - and that outcome is you lose, but it took a little longer".
I've seen some hotfixes going in already for priests, and I'm going to check them out tonight.
--Sly
I have to disagree, healing has a choice now. It's not .... everyones going to live while I spam aoe heals or tab renew anymore. The choice is simple and very clear. Let the dps who are messing up die and keep the good ones alive, try to heal everyone and expand too much mana, or don't. I'm a firm believer that there shouldn't always be a guarantee that all party members survive a fight. Sometimes death is an acceptable means if it means you save that extra 20% mana for the tank. That's the way it was done before wrath and I didn't see any problem with it. If people are going to keep blaming the healer... just stop healing that dps thats being dumb on a normal pull. When he/she and only he/she dies a few times they'll realize how hard stuff is hitting and hopefully start taking steps to avoid the bad juju.
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Boone-Eldar  Title: Infallible
Posts: 273
Registered: 2001-12-28 16:31:37
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Reason Healers are taking the pain of Cataclysm |
Frankly healers need to go back to the method like we used to back in vanilla and BC. If DPS rips off the tank let them die. The mob almost always will return back to the tank and you can continue. They die a few times and they will learn. They complain and you respond "try assisting the tank next time and you won't die" or explain at the beginning of the fight that DPS shouldn't be expecting any heals so don't get all crazy. They drop the group, ohh well there are plenty of DPS in the queue who are eager to take their place.
I played a Holy Priest (well holy/disc in vanilla) all through Vanilla and BC. The only time I healed DPS in vanilla and BC was if there was some sort of aoe damage and that was only when I had time and they usually bandaged themselves or used a health pot before I did have time. My focus and main priority was almost always on keeping the tank alive. Period. Tank dies, we all die. It was their responsibility to avoid damage and if they took any, do their best to heal themselves through whatever means they could.
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Seriously?
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