cgx_ziggleo posted:
I still say this is a hard shield nerf.
Question: Before DW affects shield % to block, was there a block cap of 60% in effect?
Meaning: When classes could get 60%+higher to shield in RVR,DW would effect block %, now with block capped at 60% and a hard adjust of 25% with DW that really is severe. No?
I was being a bit over the top on my rant about how DW love against a defense class is profound but honestly I personally feel its neither realistic to gameplay or mechanics.
Why should any light defense DPS class have a 1up on a dedicated defense class when standing toe to toe? maybe im missing something, perhaps ea should be missing my monthly.
Also I wasnt trying to single out a class that was capable of DW and Shield, more to a class that had greater abilities that would'nt spec shield anyway.
~Say like a Nightshade etc.
This is only cake to them, or those who can lay in wake stealthed and pick and choose a victim. Albiet the only thing that probally is running solo is a tank. Now they get a greater chance of taking those down too.
You're not understanding how DPS vs Defense actually works. Here is an excerpt I copied from a vn post explaining this relationship between a ranger and a scout.
Vilna posted:
And if you want balance, gotta think about the numbers.
How much does 50 CD/DW spec increase dps compared to 1h? Well, in terms of base damage, you get ~58% chance to swing offhand (at 50 total spec), so 58% increase. Of course, style damage happens only on the mainhand so it's actually less than that, but we can roll with the 58% for now.
For shield to be equally as effective in a 1v1 as DW, it needs to bring that dps back to where it originally was, at the same level of spec. What % damage mitigation do we need to go from 1.58x dps back to 1x? Happens to be 37% if you do the math.
If a scout's shield block rate (with 50 total shield spec) was 37%, then it would balance nicely. For example:
let's say 1h dps = 100
DW dps with 50 spec = 100 * 1.58 = 158
DW dps vs 37% block rate: 158 * (1-0.37) = 99.54 ~ 100
There you have it, that would be balanced. Of course, then you can take into account factors like DW styles being somewhat better (in some realms) than base styles, style damage being only on the mainhand, shields having very nice styles, etc, but that's all extra.
Unfortunately, that's not the situation we have right now. A scout's block rate against a single dual wielding rogue attacker is much higher than 37%, particularly since they can augment it with MoB, which the DWer has no offensive counterpart to (return on MoPain is much worse, as you'll see below). This results in a significant advantage for a shield user (i.e. scout) when fighting a DW user (i.e. ranger).
Now let's look at the extreme of the increase in base damage you can get from CD/DW, at 50+23 spec. The chance to swing offhand is ~74%, so the damage multiplier is 1.74. Again, to bring that back down to 1 to balance it out, we need a block rate of ~42%. 100 * 1.74 * (1-0.42) = ~100.
So, if we capped shield block chance, at, for example, 50%, the scout would still be able to achieve somewhat higher overall landed dps in a 1v1 fight against a ranger, even an rr13 pure melee ranger with 50+23 CD. However, that's ok, since against targets without substantial melee of their own, extra offense is more useful than extra defense. Imo, this would not be an unbalanced solution.
Btw, just for illustration purposes of how a scout with say 80% block right now (say 42+20 shield and mob5) compares to a melee ranger (say 44+20 CD and mop5, just for same point investment) in terms of dps they do to one another.
-Scout does his 1h dps, which is in our example 100. After the scout's 10% crit rate for an average of 30%, that gets boosted to a dps of 103.
-Ranger does his DW dps, which at 64 spec is 1.67x 1h dps, so 167. With the ranger's 49% crit rate for an average of 30%, that gets boosted to 191. But, only 20% of this damage gets through since 80% is blocked, resulting in a landed dps of only 38.3.
Evade can be neglected, since both have an equal chance to evade the remaining dps. So, right now, a melee scout fighting a melee ranger has roughly a 103/38.3 = 2.7x advantage (again, neglecting things like shield slam, etc). Now, I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound balanced to me.
Edit: The above quote was originally posted when shield had no cap in RvR.
Hope that helps shed some much needed light on the subject. That said, I think the nerfing of slam *and* adding the new DW penalty is a mistake. Mythic should add the DW penalty then wait and see how that effects scouts (who this nerf is truly aimed at).
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They like to conveniently ignore that if purge is down my sorc or any other caster or support class with purge down will be eating grass if they stun and the cleric isn't quick on the draw.