Well as it's already reduced (item resists + resist buffs + det + stoic) then how about you make it a fixed stun (no resist or det reduction) and set it at 7 seconds?





If a chanter uses it first he's doing it wrong... In 8v8 a root is much more useful than a stun; In siege a stun is more useful than a root; In a zerg then if the Hib gets to free cast for the 5+ seconds of the stun then your zerg is much smaller than theirs and it's a moot point either way.


BTW isn't 25% of 60% 15%?


{edit} Willing to admit my maths may be fail.... But the way I read it it will aid defense penetration by 25% not a flat firgure of 25 reduction.

The way it's written suggest a flat 25%. But I concede, needs to be tested. Just haven't had time yet

 

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Sure. First of all, I should clarify that I believe this patch is directed primarily at soloers, not grouping because it really has a very low impact on group dynamics for both slam AND for DW defense penetration. Group players will adapt with back stuns and side stuns. Their hotbar will be slightly more cluttered because the one style fits all slam will be reduced in effectiveness, but the functional difrferences between 7-8 and 9 second stuns is minimal. If a shield user is using their shield for defense in a group fight...well something has gone very wrong in most circumstances, so defense penetration isn't a huge issue.

So, if group fights will not be severely impacted, that leaves solo playstyles as the ones being targeted in this patch.

Scouts are rarely solo, and this patch has very little impact on the non-solo scout. They still can easily side stun to get the PB PB PB goodness, while protecting their boyfriends.

Heavy tanks get to keep slam, so they are excepted...they are only running into defense penetration, but I'd like to point out that parry is untouched...an ability that scouts to not have, and hybrids won't have much of, because they are all in for slam and their hybrid magic lines.

As for hybrids, I see quite a few of them solo, particularly reavers, thanes and valks. 9 sec slam makes them able to get off some impressive burst dps, just like the taipan-cobra chain, or slam +2h from valks, or slam +storm calling nukes from thanes, then turtle and hide behind the shield again....wait out immunity timer and repeat.

I hear about reavers killing multiple stealthers at a time...this patch will change such things. now, the same kind of spike damage will be possible, but more tricky because the player will have to side stun to get 8 seconds (and the opener of a 2 part chain, assuming 8 second side stun) or accept one less positional chain with a 7 second stun, off block, unless the player wants to make the investment in 50 shield..which has it's own drawbacks.

Furthermore, their survivability will be down because DWers will be able to penetrate defenses easier; they'll be hit more by light tanks, assassins and melee rangers. I'm unsure about savages, it seems to be open to debate as to whether their dynamics will cut into defenses or not and I don't pretend to have an educated or otherwise guess. Vs Heavy tanks, they'll still be facing 9 sec slam +2h spike dps in most cases, and still impressive defense because parry is not cut into at all.

All in all, it seems like the playing field will be more even as far as solos go, except for scouts. Scouts get screwed hard, but I think they are mostly bystanders.

EDIT: Additional evidence that scouts are not being specifically targeted can be found in the fact that the Heavies are getting to keep their slam. If it was specifically a scout and shield nerf, they would only nerf slam on scouts, and put in the DW penalty. The fact that hybrids are very clearly left in there (with their large shields for blocking more attackers) must rationally indicate that they are intended targets, and it's one reason why basing stun duration on shield size imo would not work: That change would not impact what I believe to be the intended targets.

Scouts will definitely need something, because what is happening to them is not fair. As I said in another thread though, there simply aren't that many true solo scouts to get upset about this change. Hundreds of players will be benefitting from this patch, and I am willing to guess there are TRULY less then 20 solo scouts who will be getting screwed over by this, and probably at least half of them also play a class that will be benefitting as an alt. It would be nice to see something thrown in for scouts in this patch, but I think it's going to have to go live to truly assess the level of impact before they can look at taking corrective action.

 

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This.

Crazyhawk,

As far as this being aimed at Hybrids, I would consider it maybe SOME hybrids, Reavers being a great example but Thanes much less so ... and Valks ... seriously? An s/s valk does not dish dps, they can live a long time but are low low dps, spear valks are better dps BUT if you spec high enough for slam then either you have no OW, no Mend or really bad WS since they are on a low WS table and you will miss, alot.

This is about scouts and tic's, no question and having played both I can see why, and have no sympathy. I would say that given the double nerf ( single for hunters and rangers ) for their defensive abilities, the archer classes should maybe be bumped to Evade 4, but the above would be best for slam duration to be applicable to equipped shield size.

It's not up to you to decide that only the 20 or so "solo" scouts have value. Lots of people play them even if you hate the play style it will still impact ALOT of players. As far as it goes I think it IS targeting scouts just because of how many of them there are. Yes solo reavers can be a huge pain and in some ways quite OP but there really are not that many of them that are played compared to say oh I dunno ... Scouts.

I think most likely the easiest answer for Mythic to code this was by class, which is one change and done, rather than by equipped shield size which would be dynamic and make them code it so that a style duration depended on equipped items. Much harder to do. They taking the easier road, which in turn sucks for the hybrids.

 

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They could just as easily it by shield size the class is ABLE to wield. i.e. a Reaver using a small shield would still get a 9 sec slam.

Oh, and a 2H valk can put out good dps with slam + 2H.

 

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No, it's not up to me. It's not up to the scouts who are crying either. It's up to mythic. Morgash asked my opinion on why I thought it was aimed at hybrids, and I explained it. You don't agree with me obviously. *shrug* As I don't sit in the design meetings, my opinion is 100% speculation just like yours. I simply applied logic; more people will be happy with this change then will be hurt by it. Catering to the desires of the majority is good business. Unless you can somehow provide numbers that indicate more people will be negatively impacted then will be positively impacted, pushing the patch forward will be good business.

I will go further to say, that the true gutting of scouts is the defense penetration which AT LEAST 80% of the scout community will not even notice because they are in stealth zergs anyway. They will only notice, and care about the slam portion of the nerf, and they will quickly adapt by learning to use side stun then PB for their damage output, and thus, only the solo scout community will truly feel the full impact of the nerf; and this community is a true minority.

If this was aimed at scouts and tics though, the patch would have specifically targeted scouts and tics. It was not, thus I am forced to believe that other targets were the intended recipients of the effects of the nerf. we know that heavy tanks were NOT the intended recipient so, that pretty much leaves everyone who is not a heavy tank, which includes the hybrids and scouts.

 

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I would like to also add my vote for removing baseline stun for hib.

This comes from a player who has been Hib for 9 years.

Mind you I think it should be removed from game completely, which would mean Cleric and Healer stuns.

Havent been able to log onto Pen since the 1.109 patch. saying dont have latest version. any advice???

This almost makes me want to come back and play my skald.

 

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.... my two cents.. I have been playing my paladin as a hybrid spec for 10 years, it seems to me a little bit ridiculous to nerf something that has been in the game for that long , especially for a toon that people see as not being a threat anyway . It is really sad , I would really like to know what their logic is in this , considering they let armsman have the full stun and not a paladin. To have it on paladin you have to give up part of your dps that you gain from 2h , I run 34 slash , 42 shield , 45 chant , and 34 2h ,4 parry. The very least they could do is fix the bug to have our af chant coexist with the cleric spec af , that wouldn't be to bad of a trade off , but to take 4 seconds off of our slam , without giving something back ,seems like a huge nerf to a toon that didnt need any nerf.
Guess it may be time to go back to full 2h for a while ..