Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
DAOC is a good product, if it was a bad one we wouldn't be having this discussion, it would have ended 8 years ago. Poor decision making from management is different then a bad product.
TOA did cost them alot of subscriptions, however rather then changing completely to "Classic" servers which were NOT the original playset of the game, they should have watered down the harshness of TOA much quicker. All the aspects with the exception of ML's were added into Classic servers anyway, spell range bonus to stat caps ect. Ml's and the range of buffs were the only difference in the end. TOA was a shock to the system, too much PVE all at one time for a game that was centered around an end game, that is what drove people away. specialized areas and mobs to kill to level certain artifacts, heck cloudsong wouldn't level unless you were in a full group. Time was the TOA issue, not the ML's. If ml's took 20 minutes to an hour to cmplete and arties took 20 minutes to level, there would not have been such an uprising. DAOC players want the end game experience, not all the BS getting there. We are a very impatient group
Read my previous bit in the thread about cow pies (cow poop).
I am 40 and have been retired for the last 6 yars, the 4 years prior to that I took a company that was dead to the #1 producer in the US in our field. Show me that in yor resume and I might read your cow poop comments.
Good for you and bravo. Seriously. That is quite an accomplishment.
But, when discussing game issues, unless your credentials are from the game industry it does not mean as much as you may want to believe. Also, while I do hate the typo police and I also hate the grammar police (I type typo with the best), when one is touting what they believe to be superior credentials in an attempt to prove their own superiority and to prove the inferiority of another, it is wise to at least attempt to use a spell checker.
As for someone’s brilliance in one field correlating to brilliance in other, unrelated fields:
I know a brilliant engineer, a few actually, some of them are almost blithering idiots when it comes to things outside of their field. That they are not great at everything does not detract from how brilliant they are at what they do.
I know a very kind hearted physician (surgeon) that donates time and services every year by traveling to third world countries and saving lives. The person is brilliant in many areas and is a skilled surgeon. The surgeon was very interested in investments and thought it would be fun to manage his own portfolio. Almost every investment the surgeon tried to manage on his own, failed. Finally the surgeon found others, skilled in managing investments, to manage his investments and now his investments are thriving.
Being exceptionally good at something usually does not correlate to being even mediocre in a different field.
I am happy to hear that you are intelligent and successful but if you were as bright as you want to believe, you should be able to see that which is intensely obvious. That you totally missed the obvious indicates that if your credentials are actually true, then like many other successful people you are not as good as you think you are in other areas.
That which should be obvious:
Advertising products that are vastly substandard rarely brings in repeat customers. Advertising can do more damage than good when patrons come in and find that the product is horrible (horrible when compared to what they expect or what they want). As word gets out that the product is substandard, a product that should be avoided, the advertising campaign backfires.
In many businesses it is possible to hype the product enough that customers become almost mesmerized into wanting the product. Once the customer has the product, the company has their money. The MMO industry is a repeat business model. I find it strange that anyone with business experience could actually view the MMO industry, view the typical MMO player, take stock of what attracts and what keeps the typical MMO player actively subscribing to a game, then look at DAoC and conclude that DAoC, the way that DAoC is today and without major changes, has what it takes to garner subscriptions from the typical MMO player base (if only the game were just advertised).
DAOC is a good product; it could be saved through proper management and even made profitable.
If you had said that DAoC is a good concept, I could have totally agreed. DAoC is one of the best concepts in the MMO world but it has a horrible end design and it has horrible implementation. As it is today, DAoC is a horrible product. Proof is in how DAoC bleeds subscriptions.
I totally agree that if the management of DAoC were to be changed, DAoC could be made profitable (tremendously profitable.) However, the way that DAoC is today, advertisement would not help at all.
DAoC has been neglected, it has outdated features, it has huge bug problems, etc. Most MMO gamers are PvE centric and the PvE in DAoC is horribly disjointed/eclectic. Also, the vast majority of PvE centric MMO players want months and months of PvE fun but the PvE in DAoC can be completed in just a few days.
Any that play the game should be able to see the obvious problems with the game. That you do not see the problems, or think the consumer will just ignore or overlook the games problems, is interesting.
While my opinions may be slightly askew, mostly they stand the test of logic and at most need only slight adjustment.
DAoC, the form it is in today with all its bugs and problems, is not what the typical MMO gamer wants in a game and all the advertisements in the universe will not change or alter that. It should be self-evident. (It should be obvious.)
The biggest problem this game has is an image problem.
DAoC does have an image problem. DAoC is horrendously flawed, it is neglected, it has horrible and longstanding bugs, its PvE has become a hodgepodge of eclectic and uncoordinated additions, it has a horrible min/max problem that contributes to elitism among experienced players, etc. . and much worse. DAoCs image problem is because DAoC has tremendous problems. DAoC’s image problem is not because DAoC lacks an add campaign.
Before any advertisements can seriously change the perception of the typical MMO player toward DAoC, DAoCs real and actual problems need to be addressed and fixed.
Mythic dropped the ball when they bowed to te people that wanted the classic servers because they didn't like the work involved in TOA. If those servers were the most used and profitable, Ywain would be a Classic rule set server, but it isn't. Since then the inmates have ruled the prison, not the guards.
If management failed to understand the customer and if because of a faulty management philosophy the management moved the company or product in the wrong direction, that is all on management (unless the customers stormed the boardroom). Sorry but no serious businessperson would blame customers for the decisions that were made by those in management.
Old players rarely help new ones, they expect everyone to know it all when they join a group and make fun of them when they don't. New players don't have the resources without searching all over the net for information. The people that are left have played so long they don't remember needing help with quests, and region chats are horrid. People don't want to pay for a game that should be fun and have sarcastic comments to simple questions in /region or /advice. . . . . .
. . . . .If players really want to keep this game rolling, use common sense before you make a snive comment in region to a question instead of answering the actual question.
That is most certainly true. But it is human nature. In any group there will be those who are disruptive. DAoC has been twisted into a game that tends to attract only the disruptive among the MMO players. DAoC caters to the elite PvP MMO gamer and the typical elite PvP MMO gamer tends to be verbally abusive to everyone, even their buds.
To have an MMO that has an abundance of well-mannered, considerate and helpful players, the game needs to be able to attract the play style of players with those attributes. DAoC no longer has the features that the well-mannered, considerate and helpful player is looking for in an MMO.
Advertising, even if it is targeted advertising directed toward the well-mannered, considerate and helpful MMO player, will not work because the game itself has become the opposite of what the well-mannered, considerate and helpful MMO player is looking for in a game. Even if advertising brought in half a million well-mannered, considerate and helpful MMO players, shortly after those players arrived they would depart because DAoC is no longer what those players want in a game. Over the years DAoC has been twisted into something that few want.
Most people wo post here alot are just opinionated idiots
After reading what you posted I totally agree with that comment.
that are trolling to get a +1 instead of actually giving good information.
Actually many on the boards give great information, write player guides, etc. . . . Just because some give honest evaluations of why DAoC is dieing does not make them trolls. Most hope that someday those at Mythic will wake up, take heed of the obvious and finally fix the game so that the game will be fun for many instead of fun for a very tiny niche.
Until Mythic wakes up some will continue to preach the obvious, to preach the truth. Even if the deluded insist the world is flat and all is well with DAoC, others will preach the truth until DAoC dies or until Mythic wakes up and does the right thing.
The world is not flat and DAoC is failing because there are many serious problems with the game. Until the game problems are fixed, advertising will not help. That is the truth.
xxZeddxx posted: DAOC is a good product, if it was a bad one we wouldn't be having this discussion, it would have ended 8 years ago. Poor decision making from management is different then a bad product.
TOA did cost them alot of subscriptions, however rather then changing completely to "Classic" servers which were NOT the original playset of the game, they should have watered down the harshness of TOA much quicker. All the aspects with the exception of ML's were added into Classic servers anyway, spell range bonus to stat caps ect. Ml's and the range of buffs were the only difference in the end. TOA was a shock to the system, too much PVE all at one time for a game that was centered around an end game, that is what drove people away. specialized areas and mobs to kill to level certain artifacts, heck cloudsong wouldn't level unless you were in a full group. Time was the TOA issue, not the ML's. If ml's took 20 minutes to an hour to cmplete and arties took 20 minutes to level, there would not have been such an uprising. DAOC players want the end game experience, not all the BS getting there. We are a very impatient group
Perhaps it is just symantics. Good product or good concept. DAoC is a great game with grand potential, I will give that.
I agree that Mythic went in the wrong direction when fixing TOA, or rather not fixing TOA but coming out with Classic as a band-aid. Fixing TOA would have been much better than splitting the players with additional servers.(edit: I would not have minded some 4 and 5 hr runs as long as the gear/item/ability/etc was optional for the Frontiers. Much of TOA was fun. Many players did not want TOA to be required.)
xxZeddxx posted: DAOC players want the end game experience, not all the BS getting there.
There is truth in that but there is also a problem. Existing DAoC players want the endgame experience and in that is one of the huge problems with the game. The RvR/PvP crowd is only a tiny portion of the MMO game community.
To have a fun, broadly appealing game that has a diverse and helpful population, those that love other aspects of playing MMOs, I.E. the PvE centric player, also need to be able to have fun.
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Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can,
and keep moving. - Ulysses S. Grant
Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
xxZeddxx posted: DAOC is a good product, if it was a bad one we wouldn't be having this discussion, it would have ended 8 years ago. Poor decision making from management is different then a bad product.
TOA did cost them alot of subscriptions, however rather then changing completely to "Classic" servers which were NOT the original playset of the game, they should have watered down the harshness of TOA much quicker. All the aspects with the exception of ML's were added into Classic servers anyway, spell range bonus to stat caps ect. Ml's and the range of buffs were the only difference in the end. TOA was a shock to the system, too much PVE all at one time for a game that was centered around an end game, that is what drove people away. specialized areas and mobs to kill to level certain artifacts, heck cloudsong wouldn't level unless you were in a full group. Time was the TOA issue, not the ML's. If ml's took 20 minutes to an hour to cmplete and arties took 20 minutes to level, there would not have been such an uprising. DAOC players want the end game experience, not all the BS getting there. We are a very impatient group
Nope. they should have deleted toa. Period. TOA added far too much complexity to enable them to balance the game. The time sink was bad. The impact on balance was horrific. Jacobs fired everyone who disagreed with toa. too bad he's not serving time.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
xxZeddxx posted: Mythic dropped the ball when they bowed to te people that wanted the classic servers because they didn't like the work involved in TOA.
I have to comment on this...
As a European who at that time was on the US servers, I have to say that almost everyone I played with at that time left within a few months of ToAs release.
Not because they didn't like the work involved, but because getting the pure numbers required to do ToA was something which could ONLY be done at peak US times, therefore we quite simply couldn't do it, therefore it was no longer possible for us to be competetive in RvR, therefore we all left.
I'm sure this also applies to almost anyone who played at that time but didn't live in the US, & that was a LOT of people.
It was a TERRIBLE business decision to restrict competetiveness in RvR to only those who could play at US peak times.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
Dark Age of Camelot is a great product, there is no other MMORPG that has given this kind of PVE and PVP experience made, if there were we would all be paying it. There are better interfaces for games, smoother running game engines and better loot systems, but noone can compare to the END GAME content of DAOC. The END GAME content are what all te players make it, it can't be duplicated because it is driven by the players of the game themselves. You make of it what you want. Other games have tried to follow a story line from start to finish in PVE allowing for only 1 ending to the game so to speak. With the end game of better PVP in DAOC it is an open ended event that can be rewritten every time a tower or keep is taken. There is no other game that can offer a single stealthed toon to sit in a tower and reopen another dungeon (DF) by him/herself changing the PVP experience for 1000 people in rvr. Three realms is a pain in the ass when yo get jammed in a fight, however it makes DAOC pvp more exciting, The END GAME content is driven by YOU the player and there can never be a better writer to a ending.
I would love to see instanced pvp with no rp's awarded for 1v1 up to 8v8 for bragging rights, but the resources weren't there t reinvest after so much player base loss with WOW. It still is a great product with a unique approach to PVP. I painfully played a warlock to wow's highest honor i pvp of High Warlord, I spent a boat load of time in WOW PVP and it became, #1 run here, #2 kill a pve mob #3 move to the next PVE mob and kill it to win. People would complain if they had to fight a real enemy. A couple of us from DAOC would hold up in our base wth 5 or 6 people and make a game last for hours by repeatedly killing the enemy and forcing them to respawn at their base where a mexican standoff would take place and people would haveto fight the enemy. People would leave the BG because they didn't know how to fight another player and tey couldn't kill the end objective mob to get out of te BG, they would take a 15 minute penalty for leaving a bg early rather then fight other players in PVP. You know what the objective of DAOC is, kill the enemy, no PVE at all if you don't want to. Most DAOC players are so jaded that they believe that Mythic/EA/Bioware needs to fix something all the time that they forget what they love about the game. There are a small number of players that would ever admit they love PVE and that is why they stayed all these years in DAOC, but everyone here at the end loves PVP and the ever changing environment it provides. You the players are why I believe the Product is still great.
TOA was just too much of a time sink, it was too much PVE for a game that was designed for end game PVP. Not one person I know quit by saying they left because of a speedwarp, or bodyguard, (maybe a few because of forceful zephyr and phase shift) but in reality it was because it took to long to get to be able to play the end game again and people left because of time. Those were flaws from the start that made alot of people leave. Management should have seen the change in the bottom line and done a wattering down of TOA much sooner then it did. WOW though is almost a purely PVE based game and it bosts of at one point 10,000,000 subscribers. That is alot of people who like PVE. Properly run anything can be made to be successful. Properly managed advertising, marketing and quick damage control could have saved the game after TOA, splitting the player base into 2 seperate factions TOA and Classic did absolutely nothing but harm the game overall.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
I can't see that any of those alone resurrect DAoC.
To get it resurrected ..
- PvE need to be fixed and have content which PvE persons like, at least to level what other MMOs offer.
- Balance things solved (at least do something! .. without overreacting)
- Graphics upgrade to level which attract new players
- Mythic to act like it might care about customers and money they bring
So, if this for some strange reason happens, I think it might be called DAoC2
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
OK then ....
Lots of serious - and informed - posters on this board. And over the years a lot of serious ideas have been suggested and discussed. As far as advertising goes the consensus view is that it wouldn't work; the core product simply isn't good enough. I could discuss at length but you need a decent product to keep people subscribing. Advertising could be used to sell the product and the 1 month sub that goes with it; or to promote the free trial. Advertising cannot keep people playing month after month. And the damage that does to a company reputation can be very serious.
That goes for WoW as well - and there are many reasons why it is successful.
Anyone who believes it is 'just the PvE' is missing the bigger picture; if it was that easy other companies would have done it. It does a lot right in every department - PvP as well a PvE; customer communication, promotion - a huge amount and in some areas it was also innovative (people forget it was so long ago).
Nor is it Blizzard's ability to report 12 million subscribers that is staggering. It is Blizzard's ability to continue to post stellar subscription numbers month after month after month - despite churn. Back in 2006 (maybe late 2005) SoE reported that EQ1 churn was 50%. And back then there were fewer choices.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Poll: The resurrection of Dark Age of Camelot ~
when ToA was released, maybe they should have perhaps only had say 3 MLs. see how they worked...fixed any bugs..saw how long and how many people it took to complete....then when the first 3 MLs were fixed..release another 3.
now? who knows. at lease part of all the suggestions will have to be done.
