Just look at the situation with this expac, compared to others..

We are starting this expac with the RDF in full swing..yes we had it in wrath, but only later..NOT at the release of Wrath.

This means the day Cata launches, people are going to smash "random Cata dungeon" like no tomorrow. The populace as a whole will be "learning" the new content, and I think we can all agree that out of the total number of 5 mans and raids that happen every day, the VAST majority are PUGs.

We also have Experience from PVP, which we have never had at the launch of an Expac...while this has little to do with PUGS, it does mean that players will be hitting maxlevel faster than they ever have in the past, which in turn, leads to more of them hitting the maxlevel PVE content as well.


If 2 million players ( and this is being VERY,VERY,VERY generous) belong to "raiding" guilds, that leaves 10 million players burning up the PUG scene, starting on day one, hour one, minute one, second one.


PUG's will dominate CATA.

 

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Good point. I didn't think of it like that. I do think that the majority of pugs are in for a rude awakening if what I've been hearing is true. Pugs have gotten in the habit of being lazy. No CC, no marking targets, no following a kill order and DPS have even gotten into the habit of being tank wannabes, not waiting for the tank to pull or get aggro. We will all need to adjust and adapt to the learning curve.

Keep in mind also Jared, that right now, we have overgeared players, running through dungeons they have run 600 times.


They didn't become overgeared by just showing up to the RDF once a week, and add to that the fact that they are still running dungeons after 600 trips..


They played, learned, and mastered the content.


I think the rude awakening is going to be reserved for those who think and assume that these same players are incapable of doing it all over again.

 

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Oh I agree with you 100% that the PUGs can and will master the dungeons. I just don't think, again based on what I've been hearing, that the Cata dungeons will be as easy starting out as the Wrath dungeons were. I'm sure we can all agree on how lazy or laid back we have all gotten running dungeons over the last year or 3. I can't even remember the last time CC was needed in an instance. I'm looking forward to the return of CC and other tatics being needed for instances as opposed to the "AOE mow everything down" tactic that is used 99% of the time currently. It will take some time to make the adjustments but I'm sure even (most) random PUGs will be able to learn and adapt.

I still think you are being optimistic.

Think back to BC and think of Shattered Halls and Shadow Labyrinth, hell think back to Botanica and Arcatraz.

I don't know if you ran them then but when you first hit 70 with your quested greens and blues, those dungeons were beastly - in my opinion they were truly "heroic" (where current heroic content for WOTLK is merely "brave".

Those dungeons required 5 people to cooperate, communicate, and often sacrifice some of their own "free will" and even some of their own personal DPS to get through them.

In early BC PuGs (and even some guild groups) would insist on exact compositions (- two tanks - two mages - two priests- what-have-you) to tackle some content, not because those compositions were mandatory but because those compositions made it easy.

Now, eventually, and as easily acquired gear becomes the norm as it will in Cata, sure, PuGs will "dominate" that "heroic" content, but the organized players who can count on each other to cooperate and work together as a team will have long since mastered it, with less gear and less frustration.

Oh and for the record, when you use the term "dominate" do you mean simply numbers of people who participate in it? If so, I guess you're right, but what most people playing WoW think of when they hear "dominate" used in this context with respect to PvE content is overcoming it quickly/faster than others and with less trouble and less gear.

In early Cata, the average guild groups will "dominate" that PvE content long before it's a cakewalk for the average PuGs and that's a fact propagated on the fact that guild groups will work together more seamlessly and more effectively than PuGs with random people who may or may not actually even be trying.

 

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Time will tell, Cawlin.

And when I say Dominate, I mean punch through the new content starting day one, like only guilds have in the past. And yes, since there are exponentially more people doing it this way, PUG's will dominate Cata.

Just watch.

 

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I agree 100% with this statement. If anyone does not agree, I urge you (if you dare) to activate Trade chat in any major city the next time you log on, preferably during peak hours, and just read the tripe you see there.

I love the game and I love my guild, but I abhor the lack of community in the game, and I do blame the elitist turds for making it that way. There is no excuse for it, given the size of the player base.





I haven't read most of the thread so my apologies if this has been covered. I agree with what you're saying here. That said, there's a flip-side to it. I've been in many PUGs since I resubbed back in June and for every one case like you mentioned above, I've seen at least 10 instances where elitist jerkoffs weren't interested in offering anything but bile to those who "screw up." They aren't trying to "help." They're being jerks because they think they know the game better than everyone and anyone who isn't as experienced as they are is simply a dumbass.

Ultimately I fault Blizzard for this state of affairs. It's been said already but it bears repeating: Pre-Wrath you had to know wtf you were doing in a dungeon or your group wasn't likely to be successful. They made it easy mode, which did nothing but encourage laziness. Now they've seen the error of their ways and they're pulling back, which is a positive thing IMO, but it's going to be a bumpy (frustrating) ride for many.

 

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I have been pugging almost exclusively since WotLK came out and will continue to do so in Cata. I have achieved a Kingslayer title and collected a full set of 251/264 gear during that time. I have run every single Heroic 5 man countless times in pugs and logged hundreds of hours doing so.

Frankly I think a lot of what is being stated here in this thread is gross exaggeration.

I very, very rarely run into completely incompetent players. Most are average and do what they are supposed to do. I can count on 1 hand how many times in the hundreds of hours I have spent pugging that I have not been able to finish an instance due to a Tank or Healer being so bad that we could not finish. Have there been a few DPS who were not very good? Sure but who cares. I helped carry them through an instance. Big deal.

I now am leveling a Tank and it is even easier. I can carry pretty much the rest of the group as long as I get a couple heals here and there. Heck I did 63% of the total damage done yesterday in one pug. Big deal. We finished. I got the quests done I wanted and moved on.

Some of you people need to get over yourselves. You aren't in some world first guild pushing Heroic raid content. You are an above average player at best most likely. I guess putting down people who are more casual than you are makes you feel better about yourself.

 

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Ok I'll have to cordially disagree with you then, Gutter. I don't think PUGs will punch through the dungeons on day 1. I don't even believe guilds will punch through the dungeons on day 1. I have no doubt that PUGs can and will learn the new content, but I honestly think that those groups used to working together as a team will be able to make the adjustment quicker and easier then random PUGs with members who often don't give a rat's behind about their group mates. Given enough time, a few weeks at the least, yes PUGs will be able to run the dungeons as easily as guilds. But from day 1? I find that hard to agree with.

Jared, I said they will START on day one, because of the RDF...

In every other expansion, everyone quested on day one, and very very few actually hit a dungeon.


The times they are a changin'

 

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