A few weeks or months and they have nerfed everything to the ground. Basically they're saying; you players do not want to work harder, ie, actually play for a challenge. This is quite confusing because i keep reading that you want a challenge and all of kind of crap. The fun thing is when you do get a challenge(like we're ever to see that in WoW) or anything remotely close you turn into a wimp.

 

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the content is fine for people who run in guild groups.


That post is about the dungeon finder not shocked about it at all and in the end blizzard will nerf everything to make people use it again and keep the que times moving.

 

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Still looking for a challenge, (still hoping they leave CC in). Still planning to problem solve when problems occur. Still planning to refine, refine, refine.


Nothing different than standard playstyle since '01.


Nothing different than most of the players on the VN.


Still expecting nerfs? Yup. At a minimum of 6 months from now.

 

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Poor interpretation of what they are saying. Blizz is saying that the majority of people do not like wiping constantly. Its about as fun as doing PvP against somebody who is 40 levels above you.

Making encounters that require some tactics is ok but making them so there is no room for any error is not, especially when it comes to random groups.

Interesting thought you bring up here.

Raiders wipe constantly as they learn a new boss or new raid instance. It's not fun for them, but the achievement of completing the encounter/raid instance and getting the rewards is what IS fun and is what keeps them going through the constant wipes. That's part of the game.

In raiding, many encounters, especially when raid instances are new allow very little, if any room for error in order to be successful and to be rewarded. The room for error increases with gear, encounter familiarity, player skill, and raid group coordination.

What you are saying is that this standard is not appropriate for groups of "random" players, yet the rewards for random groups for completing a dungeon are the same as the rewards for a well coordinated, well geared, guild group of players who know their classes inside and out completing that dungeon. Just like in a raid instance, the margin for error in a 5-man grows wider with gear, player skill, coordination, and encounter familiarity. Should dungeons be tuned differently with the same tuning applied to the rewards for completing them in that a dungeon with lesser difficulty gives correspondingly lesser rewards?

Even in PvP there are rankings which must be earned for the good gear, why then should there not be similar effort/skill required to obtain the rewards in PvE?

 

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Random people + challenge = fail.

It just doesn't work. The reason guilds put up with failure is because they are investing in the player, not so much in the loot. They know (or at least hope) that the player will improve their skill and learn the encounters so that future attempts will go much more smoothly, and even future unseen content will start to get better as everyone increases their skill level.

But in a random group, investing in the player is seen as a waste of time (especially if you don't even know if Joe Blow is drunk, high, 8 years old, watching TV, etc). You'll never see this person again, you won't reap the benefit of helping them improve. You CAN'T even group with them again if you want to (this is the huge flaw with the current LFD system, IMHO... no cross realm friending. Total disaster).


I personally am glad that heroic 5-mans have some balls again, but it's no surprise at all that people are crying a river.

 

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AION had it down pretty good. You could do just about any dungeon with a PUG and not wipe. If you were Elitists and had all the top of the line gear you could do the dungeon faster than a PUG with good gear but you still could wipe if your PUG had people in that had no clue how to play their class. Every dungeon/raid had a margin for error that didnt cause hostility between friends.


I did leave wow for awhile because it was so frustrating to have an entire raid wipe because one person hit the wrong button on their keyboard. Then everyon castrated them kicked them from the raid and killed their puppy. People couldnt afford to have patients with the way it was before.

 

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Edited by Mith on 12/18/10 5:18 PM (UTC)

Blizzard's tuning isn't so much the issue as the player base, however we have to go with the player base as that is who we are playing with in-game. If I get 4 other good people in a group, I don't care how hard the instance is. However, 9 times out of 10, I end up with 1 or 2 poorer players and we can't finish the instance.


However, let us look at the bigger picture for a minute:


People keep playing when they are making meaningful progress. Take that away or inhibit it, and they get bored, which means they cancel. WoW Classic and TBC had a large number of people cancel months after the "newness" of the expansion wore off and one of the big reasons was lack of progression. For TBC, the one path open to them (Heroics) was too much of a waste of time for most, as it was far to tedious to run 2 hour instances in order to get 3 badges for your loot that cost 100+ badges. WotLK kept people playing longer because it had a progression path open to them (Heroic grinding).


Blizzard made a big mistake here and the end result will be nerfs or cancellations in the summer. They can deny it all they want but in the end, even those who like the harder content, will detest it months down the road when they are grinding and sick of doing the same boring instances over and over again and just want to get it "done".


Of course, those saying "we like the harder content" now, are also the ones that wont be bothering with Heroics because they will be in raids, which makes me wonder why Blizzard even cares about their opinion on the matter in the long run.


Right now, if Blizzard was to tune the trash down a bit, things would be a lot better for groups and "harder bosses" wouldn't be such a big deal because the wipe tolerance for any given group, would be used on the bosses, not the trash as is done now and those of us sick of wasting our time on failed groups, wouldn't be as pissed off.


I just hope we don't enter into a situation where Ghostcrawler and Co, will not want to "lose face" and will keep this design going even longer than it should.

 

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Just to add to what I said above:

I view this in terms of a Wipe Budget.


You have only X amount of wipes before a group fails.Â

The cost of a failure is:

pissed off people

lack of knowledge gained because people don't get more attempts to learn

loss of loot

lack of progression

waste of time

etc, etc.


This Wipe Budget should not be wasted on trash mobs, it should be wasted on bosses.This is what my major issue is with the expansion today.People are so frustrated that we don't even give each other a chance anymore and it is pitiful and the end result accomplishes NOTHING.Â


Again, it is an issue with the player base, not Blizzard, but the player base is who we play with and thus the lowest common denominator is what determines the overall success here for everybody.Â


Perhaps blizzard needs to introduce some other Rating system to factor into the LFG system. I don't know. What I do know is that I am SICK of failed groups.

 

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Perfectly stated Mithan.

 

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