No need to rewrite it since I already posted it:


So yeah, the bad players or the undergeared scrubs who passed normals to directly go to heroics you met in PUGs suck at heroics.
Where's that majority?

 

-----signature-----

I'd like to see an armory link to check out your gear. I'll even give you my armory link in return. I'm very interested to see what gear you have that enables you to live through a 200K+ hit. Since the insta death mechanics are what we are mainly referring to when "whining" about your beloved heroics.Yes yes, we know. Anyone not as uber leet as you, which means EVERYONE, is a scrub, a baddie, undergeared, etc.

I don't want to get into a pissing match or anything. I am done with my whining about the game's mechanics being not so fun anymore.

What I want to point out though is that your suggestion, while making some sense, is seriously flawed. See, there are like 5 normals at 85...if that. Can't remember, been a few weeks since I logged in. But there are like 10+ heroics right? 5 85 dungeons + old dungeon heroics (like DM, Shadowfang, etc). Just saying.

 

-----signature-----

Just saying WHAT!? You are just-saying-what exactly?

 

-----signature-----

I think you're conflating (perhaps purposely?) the argument that "iz too hard, yo" with "death traps and slogs aren't fun." Sure, anyone can learn by dying, but when a pug has people who have real lives outside the game and are limited on time, the 5th or 6th insta-death mechanic just has people reaching for the /quit command. It's not that it's precisely hard, it's just virulently unforgiving of normal folks who haven't studied the strats online already or died enough to know the fight like the back of their hand. It seems like understanding the breadth of gaming experience in the market and having reasonable expectations of where you fit into that strata is a lot harder than completing Cata heroics. Consider as well that castbars are NOT on by default in WoW.

This was in response to someone saying that challenge could be achieved by the player by running a dungeon purposely hamstringing himself, ie running it naked etc.

Let me clarify that up - that is NOT challenge in a mmorpg and therefore is a total failure as an argument. That is simply a function of your numbers vs the encounter's numbers. Either you have them, or you don't, it's as simple as that. If the boss can hit you harder than it is possible for the healer to heal you, that is not a challenge, that is simply being undergeared.

Challenge comes from the ability to avoid or mitigate enemy actions or increase or buff your own by your own in-game actions in order to tilt the result of an encounter your way.

I HATE when people use "handicap yourself" as an argument for challenge because it indicates the person has no idea what being challenged means.

I laughed when Blizzard decided to increase the challenge of the encounters because I don't think they understood what most their customers actually want and believed they would end up realizing this and nerfing them back down (which has already happened once and will, IMO, probably happen again, if they don't just carve out their future itemization to make it unnecessary). In fact, I would have to admit they have held to this current incarnation longer than I expected them to, though maybe the end of beta nerf was enough for them for the moment. However, in no way did I personally think the increase in challenge was a BAD thing. I hate gimmicks but the requirement of CC and strategical healing was, IMO, one of the best things Blizzard has done (not necessarily the MECHANICS of the healing though).

Unfortunately I don't think I am a typical representative of what Blizzard's customer base is like. I don't think Korrigan is either, or Guttersludge. I think the "we hate challenges, if elitists want challenge they should try playing with one hand behind their back" crowd is much more representative - give them stuff for free like they got used to in WotLK and they'll be happy.

It'll be one heck of a sales job if Blizzard can convince this group that this is a better way of doing things (hard heroics). It IS the better way of doing things if you want to reward good play and punish bad, but Blizzard has been, to be kind, very inconsistent on pushing that message in the past. But I think the future is down to one of two possibilities - either Blizzard will back off of this, either via nerf or via itemization of future content, allowing facerolling of heroics once again, or the population will take a heavy hit as the freeloading casuals get discouraged and quit for something that hands things over with less effort and attention required.

 

-----signature-----

Yes. This is bad design. This is gimmick-based design, "do it this way or DIE". All of these things would be better designed if they just made it harder or slower, not killing people for singular mistakes.

Gimmicks gone wild is lazy design philosophy, a factor of being too gear based and too gear-tier based because they are forced to design encounters that scale along with gear. You're never going to get the gear to survive a 600k hit so that encounter is always going to have that gimmick being effective.

Some people must like this; I suspect they are commonly raiders who see this sort of thing all the time. I personally hate it though. I find gimmicks shallow and atmosphere-breaking. I am quite fine with content becoming non-challenging as gear goes up, which doesn't require it to be gimmick-based. Most PvPers will think the same way, as PvP is always a challenge, not a gimmick.

 

-----signature-----

Ok, so I have been monitoring this threads progress and I am ready to give my answer, solve the puzzle and share enlightenment with the masses.

For the sake of my readers who have better things to do, I will sum up my response just below, and those that care for a little bit more detail and explanation on my analysis can read on.

Basically, Korrigan is wrong. Jared Korry is mostly wrong. Everyone else has pretty much the right idea.

Korrigan basically states that because the content can be done, it can be completed, and in fact is being completed as we speak, the challenge factor, or difficulty level is where it should be. To further simplify, he believes that because he can allegedly complete the content, and knows of others who can complete the content, said content is not to difficult. All those that have difficulty accomplishing the same feat simply are worse players then he is.

Now, there are many many things wrong with this type of approach. This sort of perspective shares the same fate as many a flawed argument or view point. It is fraught with assumptions.

First, just because a certain task is possible to complete. Does not mean that the level of difficulty to complete said task, can not be brought into question.

Second, saying the difficulty of the heroic content is too difficult is not to say that it takes too much "player skill" to complete said content. In fact, assuming that "player skill" is a factor at all is the main problem here.

To truly understand if the difficulty of the heroic content should be called into question or not you must first understand the goal of said content and in fact the goal of the game itself. While we are there, lets make sure that we understand the purpose or goal of a game to begin with.

A game of this sort is played for personal enjoyment. To entertain. To.. amuse. Now I am sure it could be argued that these goals are subjective, and could mean different things to different people. Fair enough.

I contend though that we could all agree there are certain things that this form of entertainment should not do. In fact, if it did do these things, it would ultimately be failing its purpose. A game should not be tedious, or frustrating to a point which would make the player unhappy, bored, or want to stop playing said game.

Now it is important to note here that I define the above player as the game's target audience. World of Warcraft is not targeted to the "hardcore" gamer nor is it targeted to the "make me work for my reward" player. For proof of this please reference the changes made to the game since its release until now and identify the trends.

Is the heroic content impossible? No. Can a expertly skilled group of appropriately geared players consistently complete said content? Yes.

Now here is the clincher: Can an average group of players who fall into the target audience for this game consistently complete this content and enjoy doing it?

Ladies and Gentlemen, I say, NO.

THEREFORE the current heroic content is too difficult.

Thank you.

 

-----signature-----

Heroic dungeons are not designed for the average player. The dungeons for the average player are the normal dungeons.


Heroic dungeons are designed for the players with either a combination of more time, skill, or patience.


Heroic dungeons are designed for the players who want a greater than average challenge and not for us casuals.


Therefore, your conclusion is wrong.


Sorry.

 

-----signature-----

Fixed that for ya