Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
Alpha_Swift posted:
NukeMage posted: The extended time it takes to do dungeons, combined with the really high que is what killed it for me.
/thread
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I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
kyrv Title: Lord Logicus Posts: 263 Registered: 2002-1-31 13:09:58
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
siujoey posted: How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result?
Why shouldn't you be?
If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below.
siujoey posted: You also talk about how hard it is to balance PvE vs. PvP. The fact that there are 2 different gear sets is what allows balance independently. It is the only reason WoW can even pretend to have PvP. If gear is the same between PvE and PvP, the only lever you have left to pull in balancing is the abilities; and I think we all know what a train wreck it can be to nerf/buff abilities based solely on PvP or PvE encounters.
The numerous changes to abilities was BECAUSE of PvP gear. You have to understand the interplay between resilience, healing, CC, dps, and hp totals. CC was explicitly nerfed so that it behaved two different ways, one in PvP one in PvE, an inelegant solution that showed, ad nauseum, that Blizzard never thought things through when they gave numerous classes certain abilities. But beyond that, PvE has a certain requirement of healing power and longevity required. Add resilience to it and healing becomes absurdly overpowered in PvP (which then proceeded to happen several times in WoW history). The shortsighted fix of raising dps to match did nothing but shift the imbalance to globaling people during a CC. Finally they decided to go with raising hp levels while crushing relative healing power - were you aware that the current hp/healing dynamic has arenas, once again, at the core of its issue? Resilience (and therefore PvP gear) is just a part of this problem, of course... but it is a part.
siujoey posted: Aside from all that, there is the more obvious reason for gear rewards: it's the proverbial carrot on the stick. Can you imagine queue times if there were no rewards for PvP?
Queue times are what they are because no one really likes doing it. As you go back in time, and find PvP less screwed up by Blizzard, you find queue times better (population imbalances aside) and more people participating.
In fact, history of WoW's PvP proves it's not the carrot that draws PvPers, but the quality of the play. Carrot on a stick play is most effective with PvEers.
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Five more minutes then I'm done!
I've been saying that to myself since
...yesterday.
- from "Has anybody seen my corpse". Man Everquest rocked back in the day...
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
siujoey posted: How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result?
Why shouldn't you be?
If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below.
To be honest, I stopped reading after this part, you just can't argue with stupidity. Are you GC now roaming these boards and everyone must play the game and progress your way because you know best? I like to PvP. That's what I have fun doing. Why should I be forced to participate in raiding, which makes me want to stab my eyes out, just so that I can compete in PvP? What if you had to PvP to be viable in PvE? Dear lord, the whining and bitching that would ensue.
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I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
Broken_Kayfabe posted: If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below.
...
In fact, history of WoW's PvP proves it's not the carrot that draws PvPers, but the quality of the play. Carrot on a stick play is most effective with PvEers.
You are missing the problem.
The WoW paradigm system, of PvE loot treadmill........ begats the necessity for the PvP loot treadmill.
You are kidding yourself if you think it would have been a good idea to offer no rewards for PvP so as to only have "hardcore" PvP lovers PvPing.
What you would have gotten instead, as siujoey points out, is that players that PvP would have then been forced to PvE. Why? Because as players figured out that their PvE gotten loot treadmill goods meant they could go PvP and destroy PvPers that hadn't gotten samesaid loot treadmill goods....... PvP "only" players would be screwed.
Then, the PvP wouldn't be about "the love of the game" but instead about who was able to bring their raid-gotten goods from guild help... to destroy the guy only interested in PvP for "the love of the game".
It's the WoW paradigm that ultimately implodes on itself. There is no other option. The speed along a time-line is the only issue.
If anything, I thought Blizz's attempt to put resilience in the game, along with separate sets of gears obtainable by PvP OR PvE... was the only option to combat the problem (as I described above). It's not a good one, but I really don't know what you can do to combat the loot pinata design.
I KNOW there is a better way to do it. But it is not the system WoW is built on. You can't change the entire base of the game.
There are a lot of items in this thread that are good reasons for leaving WoW. I found it more to be the cumulative effect of them. I did not play Cataclysm though, so any of the newer problems I am totally ignorant about.
Instanced battlegrounds would top my list. Dungeon finder was a close second. Mostly because both of them promoted a system where there was no accountability to other players, along with losing any knowledge of your own realm. That is a huge, massive, mistake in what is supposed to be a multi-player game built around role-playing. Never felt like me being a Horde mattered. Made it feel too much like a FPS or single-player game. Didn't need to help your realm, didn't need to know your realm, didn't need to care about your realm. Could play the game PvPing and Dungeon crawling, while never needing to build a reputation or care about the other "NPC" players.
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Throw away your desires and treasures, and make sure to burn all the maps.
MMORPG
Mystaquetz in various forms.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
The entire focus of the game is to keep us hooked.
This is all WoW is. Every single design aspect is to keep you tied into the enormous thing that I refer to as a giant
Note:
No other MMO is different in this regard.
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I survived to the end and got nothing out of it, but hey.
Spookysheep Title: Lieker of Cheese Posts: 1,248 Registered: 2002-1-9 06:49:19
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
siujoey posted:
Broken_Kayfabe posted:
siujoey posted: How could all gear coming from PvE ONLY be a better situation? As a PvPer, I would be pissed if I was forced into boring raids just to compete in PvP. I hate raiding and I don't have time to raid- why should I be as effective as a training dummy in BGs as a result?
Why shouldn't you be?
If the silver platter casuals getting angry that they have to expend some effort in order to succeed is the price that has to be paid to have people who actually want to PvP in the battlegrounds, that's a price that should have been paid. Instead, PvP was treated as an alternative gear path, with all the "shortest, least effort possible" assumptions that came with it. Had PvP gear not been useful for PvE at all, it probably would have been fine, though it would still have caused all the ability balancing problems below.
To be honest, I stopped reading after this part, you just can't argue with stupidity.
Whats really strange is people wonder why they don't get anything more than one liner quips are ridicule too.
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I liek cheese
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.....................................
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
Broken_Kayfabe posted: ... I believe a large proportion of WoW's issues and downward slide can be traced even further back: to the decision to develop a gear based game to begin with.
There, I fixed it for you.
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Guttersludge
People just can't handle the truth.
NeMeFieD said:"ea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."
njwCSUS posted:I'm homosexual, so really, its ongoing sexual attraction to my father, not my mother.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:01amSubject:
In your mind, what was the one overall change that you hated in WoW?
GutterSludge posted:
Broken_Kayfabe posted: ... I believe a large proportion of WoW's issues and downward slide can be traced even further back: to the decision to develop a gear based game to begin with.
There, I fixed it for you.
Yeah what a wildly unsuccessful model it proved to be...
How will Blizzard ever recover from the massive flop that is called World of Warcraft?
ea I Ucmed for 12 days straight.."