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Topic:
Reciprocity... [Locked] |
Jorrdan  Posts: 293
Registered: 2001-10-19 07:31:24
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
Cawlin posted:
Jorrdan posted:
Cawlin posted:
Jorrdan posted:
Perhaps I wasn't clear then. It is the intent I am speaking of behind the purchase of a firearm in one state and carrying it into another (some people actually do buy them for purposes that are not good which is why I used the DC/Virginia state line example) whereas with a car when I obtain a license my intent is to drive; not to kill people with the car (accidentally or no).
Intent or not, you're still more than 3 times more likely to kill someone with your car than a gun.
Further, do you really think that all people who carry firearms do so with the intent of killing someone?
Crossing state lines is an incidental part of life for lots of people, myself included. I fairly regularly cross state lines (not as regularly as when I did so on a weekly basis), and I carry a gun when I'm in my home state. My intention is certainly not to kill anyone.
Nope. I do not. In fact, I'd say that most people do so with no ill intent. I was simply stating why the driver's license analogy was flawed for me. I would say, for example, that more people buy guns with ill intent than cars and why some states have stricter laws than others when it comes to gun control as a result. Whether or not the gun laws should be the same across the board is another discussion and was not your original question posed.
So then you think that laws which make it illegal to carry weapons in a given state are a deterrent to those who carry a weapon into a state with the intent to commit an illegal act with that weapon in that state?
Actually, no I don't and I just went back and read your original question more carefully because I couldn't figure out why you would even follow this line of questioning. I tend to agree with it [reciprocity] once the carry permit has been granted. I was thinking more along the lines of circumventing the law to actually obtain the permit originally to cross state lines. I tend to get more liberal when it comes to the actual granting in the first place (and wanting stricter controls) as I think we've discussed. My fault. Long day at work and skimming. 
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Eh.
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ZigmundZag  Title: Grammar Nazi
Posts: 1,211
Registered: 2002-3-25 23:03:00
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
GrilledCheez posted:
I would hate to be dumb and not realize it. Coming here makes me appreciate my luck.
So coming here makes you realize that you're dumb? I suppose being bested by a logout linky could do that to a person.
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"Take the cheese to sickbay!"
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Elkad Title: aka Ebenezer
Posts: 407
Registered: 2003-9-11 22:20:55
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
New York's infringement of 2A rights has nothing to do with reciprocity of carry permits.
Reciprocity of driver's licenses was purely voluntary between the states. Most have great reciprocity for carry permits as well. We don't need the federal government to interfere in this. What we need is a clear ruling on our right to BEAR arms (not just possess, as Heller and McDonald covered recently).
Then it is up to the states to determine the method for that. Texas bans open carry in any form. Until a couple months ago, concealed carry was illegal in all of Wisconsin, but Open Carry was legal everywhere (now WI has CCW permits as well). Vermont doesn't issue permits, so there is no reciprocity in other states for their residents, yet anyone can carry there, either open or concealed.
New York needs a method for everyone to carry legally. The fed doesn't need to interfere in that process, just make sure the method exists (and is useable).
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Yukishiro1 Posts: 3,243
Registered: 2002-9-20 23:52:57
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
Aerlinthian posted:
Your attempted point is that the founders didn't foresee small firearms that can be concealed, hence your argument that no 2nd amendment status applies. So based on your very own rational, I asked you that question.
Are you really this dumb?
If it's a 2nd amendment issue reciprocity is irrelevant. If the 2nd amendment gives you a right to carry concealed you don't need a permit and you certainly don't need reciprocity.
Reciprocity only matters if you conclude the constitution doesn't forbid all concealed carry legislation.
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__Bonk__  Posts: 5,122
Registered: 2009-7-25 03:04:52
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
I like using weapons in games. IRL its too expensive for ammo
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I keep my eyes fixed on the sun!
A change in feeling is a change in destiny.
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Cawlin Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
Jorrdan posted:
Cawlin posted:
So then you think that laws which make it illegal to carry weapons in a given state are a deterrent to those who carry a weapon into a state with the intent to commit an illegal act with that weapon in that state?
Actually, no I don't and I just went back and read your original question more carefully because I couldn't figure out why you would even follow this line of questioning. I tend to agree with it [reciprocity] once the carry permit has been granted. I was thinking more along the lines of circumventing the law to actually obtain the permit originally to cross state lines. I tend to get more liberal when it comes to the actual granting in the first place (and wanting stricter controls) as I think we've discussed. My fault. Long day at work and skimming.
I know you to be a little bit more rational on this topic and was surprised you were heading the direction I thought you were too.
For what it's worth, there is an incredible morass of stupid and inconsistent firearms laws. Many of which are designed solely to harass law abiding citizens and make firearms ownership and/or carry just too much of a pain in the ass to deal with (e.g. Illinois), others state that they technically allow you to carry, but carry permits are granted on what's called a "may issue" basis, which means that they are granted only at the discretion of whatever issuing officer (typically a county sheriff) in states such as these (e.g. NY and NJ) it usually means that they simply don't grant any carry permits, though technically you could get one - if the county sheriff thinks your reason is good enough (virtually never).
Other examples of stupid laws - it is presently legal to "open carry" in I think 40 states. This means you can just have that 45 in its holster on your hip or in a shoulder holster plainly visible. However, if you want to then wear a coat that might conceal it, you're breaking the law unless you have a permit to carry concealed...
Pennsylvania is in interesting case as well - Open carry is legal in PA and it is a "shall issue" state with respect to concealed carry (this means that you can get a carry permit unless there is an objective reason to deny it such as convictions, etc.). However, in PA while you may legally "open carry" while on foot, you may NOT carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle unless you have a concealed carry permit...
The bottom line on the issue is that there is presently a bill that has passed the house by a fairly large margin which would force states to recognize carry permits from other states. We shall see if it passes the senate - the margin by which it passed the house leads me to believe it has a pretty good shot - quite a few house dems voted in favor of it... we shall see.
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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Taliesihne Title: Wind on the Deep Waters
Posts: 1,117
Registered: 2004-2-19 04:47:59
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
States should be free to reciprocate or not. It is ultimately up to the citizens of the state to decide. And it's the only way for gun owners to have some say in the matter.
If you are for gun laws, nationalization of the topic should make you incredibly nervous. Gun laws for the nation will end up being written by it's cities the instant you try to nationalize anything.
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich
First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. -Roland Deschain, of Gilead
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Cawlin Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
Elkad posted:
New York's infringement of 2A rights has nothing to do with reciprocity of carry permits.
Reciprocity of driver's licenses was purely voluntary between the states. Most have great reciprocity for carry permits as well. We don't need the federal government to interfere in this. What we need is a clear ruling on our right to BEAR arms (not just possess, as Heller and McDonald covered recently).
Then it is up to the states to determine the method for that. Texas bans open carry in any form. Until a couple months ago, concealed carry was illegal in all of Wisconsin, but Open Carry was legal everywhere (now WI has CCW permits as well). Vermont doesn't issue permits, so there is no reciprocity in other states for their residents, yet anyone can carry there, either open or concealed.
New York needs a method for everyone to carry legally. The fed doesn't need to interfere in that process, just make sure the method exists (and is useable).
Lack of reciprocity is problematic though unless states grant CCWs to non-residents (for reasonable fees). Otherwise people become a felon by crossing a state line - like the guy in the original article.
I do agree though that the "may issue" status for some states for CCW permits needs to go. Issuing authorities in those states have created a de facto "will not issue" status. States must at the very least all become "shall issue" imo.
-----signature-----
If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
Yukishiro1 posted:
If the 2nd amendment gives you a right to carry concealed you don't need a permit and you certainly don't need reciprocity.
No "if" about it. Other than that, glad you finally conceded the point.
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Elkad Title: aka Ebenezer
Posts: 407
Registered: 2003-9-11 22:20:55
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:01am
Subject:
Reciprocity... |
Cawlin posted:
[I do agree though that the "may issue" status for some states for CCW permits needs to go. Issuing authorities in those states have created a de facto "will not issue" status. States must at the very least all become "shall issue" imo.
How about going the old Wisconsin method? Open Carry only. I have a problem with being forced to pay for a permission slip for "shall not be infringed".
Paying for extra privileges (concealing) is OK by me, as long as there is a method for everyone to carry without paying.
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"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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