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Topic:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? [Locked] |
Manegarm  Title: European Imperialist Good Guy
Posts: 1,964
Registered: 2003-8-11 10:01:52
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
SirGarth posted:
Ptilk posted:
I don't see any "moral" difference in encouraging children to look forward piloting gunships that bomb city centers and encouraging children to carry bombs into city centers. Both sides "reward" the families of the ones who die while carrying out such missions. Both sides honor their memory and make monuments to their "sacrifice".
The suicide aspect of course is pretty horrifying... but they don't have gunships.
i'm very comfortable being firmly on the other side of that position. i see a VAST difference between children who are allowed to group up and make their own decisions, and those who aren't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrows_Pioneers
Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.
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Europa Eternita!
"Damn, Manegarm; you are HAWT!! " - Taolynn
"To the everlasting glory of the infantry, Shines the name Shines the name of Rodger Young"
ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!
Nein mann ich will noch nicht gehen
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SirGarth  Title: Moderator
iMod
Posts: 337
Registered: 2002-5-17 12:37:09
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
Manegarm posted:
Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.
yes, that's exactly the same as child martyrdom... 
it's exempted for arab citizens of Israel, and there are other options and exceptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Military_service_routes
but regardless, that's at age 18, and they're not indoctrinated to believe that blowing themselves up is the best possible goal in life.
if you see a moral equivalency there, then again i'm comfortable being firmly and absolutely on the other side of that position.
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imaloon1  Posts: 674
Registered: 2003-9-15 07:19:53
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
SirGarth posted:
Manegarm posted:
Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.
yes, that's exactly the same as child martyrdom...
it's exempted for arab citizens of Israel, and there are other options and exceptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Military_service_routes
but regardless, that's at age 18, and they're not indoctrinated to believe that blowing themselves up is the best possible goal in life.
if you see a moral equivalency there, then again i'm comfortable being firmly and absolutely on the other side of that position.
I'm not quite sure what kind of person you have to be in order to equate the actions of a trained military force under direct orders from their chain of command to a family's children as being equal in any way shape or form...
Seriously Garth I know you're Jewish or play one on the internet but come on.... I don't even have to try on this one.
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The time draws nearer to your fate
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SirGarth Title: Moderator
iMod
Posts: 337
Registered: 2002-5-17 12:37:09
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
i'm not the one saying they are equal... i'm disagreeing with manegarm and ptilk's attempt to draw a moral equivalency.
i agree that saying they are equal in any way is absurd.
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imaloon1 Posts: 674
Registered: 2003-9-15 07:19:53
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
Oh I'm sorry, so you're saying that the IDF is justified then because they follow their chain of command instead of oh maybe reacting to their family members being murdered before their eyes for not having the right papers? Or being born not Israeli? Or living literally on the wrong side of the road?
Not for nothing but you can't have it both ways in defense of Israel.
Well maybe you can I don't know.
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The time draws nearer to your fate
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
Pointless to argue with Garth. A jew would never admit to the evils of Israel.
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Here mi! Let me hear nah u say u can bAaaad me up.
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SirGarth Title: Moderator
iMod
Posts: 337
Registered: 2002-5-17 12:37:09
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
i think you're missing the point of the discussion... i know you hate Israel and all, but take a deep breath and try to focus.
simple question: do you think recruiting children to be suicide bombers and glorifying their deaths is morally equivalent to Israel's military service system?
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SirGarth Title: Moderator
iMod
Posts: 337
Registered: 2002-5-17 12:37:09
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
YouMightSeeMe posted:
Pointless to argue with Garth. A jew would never admit to the evils of Israel.
i have actually, on several occasions, although generally with people interested in an actual discussion (and also with people who don't think Jews are sneaky money lenders who get ahead by sabotaging their gentile victims. sheesh.)
what amazes me is when people so vigorously defend or downplay the evils of Palestinian militants.
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Manegarm Title: European Imperialist Good Guy
Posts: 1,964
Registered: 2003-8-11 10:01:52
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Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
SirGarth posted:
Manegarm posted:
Well they aren't because military service is not a choice in Israel.. 3 years mandatory for males.
yes, that's exactly the same as child martyrdom...
it's exempted for arab citizens of Israel, and there are other options and exceptions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Military_service_routes
but regardless, that's at age 18, and they're not indoctrinated to believe that blowing themselves up is the best possible goal in life.
if you see a moral equivalency there, then again i'm comfortable being firmly and absolutely on the other side of that position.
garth posted:
i see a VAST difference between children who are allowed to group up and make their own decisions, and those who aren't.
Impossible if you still get drafted on your 18th birthday.. Mandatory.
Military service is military service no matter what position you are in... If they refuse they get sent to jail, you just drew an arbitrary line in the sand and said "here it's right to force people to kill and here it isn't"
There is nothing moral about forcing the youth of your nation to occupy and oppress another people... Your kippa has clearly overheated your thick skull on this one.
-----signature-----
Europa Eternita!
"Damn, Manegarm; you are HAWT!! " - Taolynn
"To the everlasting glory of the infantry, Shines the name Shines the name of Rodger Young"
ALWAYS ANGRY, ALL THE TIME!
Nein mann ich will noch nicht gehen
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SirGarth Title: Moderator
iMod
Posts: 337
Registered: 2002-5-17 12:37:09
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
I thought Israel was supposed to be the good guy ? |
Manegarm posted:
There is nothing moral about forcing the youth of your nation to occupy and oppress another people..
you clearly didn't bother to read about what the options are for fulfilling the service requirement, and what the alternatives/exceptions are.
and i think there is a huge moral difference between mandatory service to your country at 18, and teaching your children younger than 10 that there is no higher purpose in life than to blow yourself up for your country.
frankly, i'm surprised that's even debatable... but again, to each their own.
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