I don't disagree but I also don't agree I'm just saying.. I don't know.. heck if Blizzard makes a new MMO tomorrow that is purely PvP, they might also hit 1 million/billion players... the thing is, most PvP oriented MMO's are all following the same setup.. gank everywhere, which is something alot of people just don't like... DAoC is about the only one which has a different style of PvP.. but the game is so old, that no matter how polished/bugfree/cool they make it, many people will not even look at it because .. it's 10 years old.

Warhammer, for all it's flaws, probably introduced some people to a different style of PvP from what they are used to (WoW BGs).. if you read the RIFT forums, you'll notice some people are asking for that style of play, people who haven't even heard of DAoC... ofcourse, WH was such a fail in many other areas that the game bombed pretty hard.

We'll see what GW2 will bring us... sounds like they are also trying to do something different regarding PvP.. and it's a big known name, so it will attract some players for which PvP will be a first time.

I also happen to think RvR is a niche market.

Mostly because playing against intelligent (or not so intelligent depending on the player..) enemies is not something that fits the "casual" lifestyle.

Unlike PvE scripted AI mobs. Which can be learned, and once learned, present little actual challenge. This won't change after time.

PvP is never scripted, or if it does it sucks. Every fight can be different, and that isn't casual friendly. If you aren't completely in-tune with your character, it WILL be difficult. And it won't necessarily ever get easier, since every fight is a whole new can of worms with a real life player that may not react the way you think they will.

This is what is the draw of challenge to the "more serious gamer", and is a deterrent to the "casual gamer".

WoW caters to the latter, not the former. That's how they made it to 10 mil subscriptions. It's also in the middle of the current drama surrounding that new X-pac, since it made the PvE dungeon grinding harder for casuals... and made em all angry in the process.

Appealing to casuals reaches a far larger audience than appealing to the more serious gamers. 10 mil doesn't lie.

This does not mean I think a DAOC 2 couldn't work. It could. But only if a company is willing to accept that they may not see 1 mil+ in subscriptions.

I actually happen to think that it's not a good idea to try and out-PvE casual Blizzard's WoW. Targeting an under-served niche market could pay dividends. But innovation isn't popular with investors.

 

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I would just like to point out that Guild Wars 2 will include a 3way week long battle royal between 3 servers at a time with devs who claim DAoC as the inspiration for their WvWvW playgrounds. I have a grand ole time trying to explain RvR concepts to all the WoW bg kiddies tho. Just hoping the darned game makes it out this year because I was ready to play it as is 9 months ago when I tried the demo at PAXprime but having perfectionists for devs can slow things down a bit. Going to have more polish then anyone knows what to do with tho.

 

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I pretty much agree with your statements there, but the one thing you might be missing is tied up in that bolded statement above. It would seem logical that if blizzard hawked a pvp fantasy mmo they could potentially reach 1 million subs off their current base, but my contention is that precisely because pvp is always a sliver of the pie, the new pvp game would experience similiar subscription patterns as WAR did.

The simple undeniable fact remains: Most PvPers rely heavily on achieving their abilities from PvE, then move to PvP when they think they have an advantage or are at the highest tier to compete. Games that have tried to work around this dynamic by giving PvP'ers the ability to progress with gear and abilities purely from PvP have failed to succeed, ironically WoW being a slight exception - but even they started with the basic dynamic I have referred to, and no one thinks of WoW as a PvP game.

So it stands to reason, at least to my mind, that even a WoW "PvP" game would fail not long after launch because of this basic dynamic which needs a PvE foundation. And without people who can make the pve world thrive, your pvp world that started with abundant servers will eventually be clustered down to one tiny server, where the remaining "PvP'ers" will extoll the virtues of their game.

DAoC anyone?

 

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Rift is a PVE focus game, ppl don't copy DAoC because WoW made big moneys and Rift is sooooooooo WoW 2.0, they're just copying the money maker. people don't want to hurt their heads nowadays with big boy RVR so they enjoy the playgrounds of wow/rift

 

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DAOC's RvR was certainly not finished at released, but it was still a core part of the game and much further along than what Rift has. And even without realm points and such, RvR in DAOC on day 1 felt much more meaningful than open PvP in Rift.


PS. And it should be obvious that Rift really isn't trying to appeal to the PvP community that much. It's a PvE first game (like WOW).

I really think people stay away from PvP MMO's because they get upset when they lose. They put all the time into getting their character geared and speced then run out and someone comes up and mops the floor with them. Then they get competitive and upset.

Heck, all of us have probably been there at one point or another. It's not everyones cup of tea.

 

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My experience with Rift has been decent thus far. My background of MMORPGs started with DAOC Shrouded Isles.

I played the game solid all the way up to the Ywain transfer. So I know what pvp I like and need in a MMORPG for it to be solid.

Only games that have lasted more than 1 month with me are as follows.

GuildWars - 6mo
Age of Conan - 3mo
Warhammer - 4mo
Aion - 3mo

League of Legends tops the charts in second place at 1 year and some odd months.

I find that LoL has kept my pvp addiction at bay for quite some time. Its pure pvp that's why. Pure skill based. No one can get better gear than you, Love that!

DAOC kicked the casuals out when people were hitting rr7+ and utterly destroying anyone under rr5.

Rift is now starting to get complaints from the 50s saying that there is really not much to do besides grinding dungeons, how fun is that? I'm not sure if Trion felt their game was solid and would keep people entertained til their first expansion, but as it sits now there have been people lvl 50 for over 3 weeks now. People are already complaining before the first sub hits.

On a positive Trion is the only company Ive experienced who has successfully implemented an MMORPG with no real bugs, no patch down times, no crashes. Trion listens to their player base. I think they understand they need to develop the 50 content further and create something for the pvpers. I'm positive they know that the PVP niche is much smaller and they do not want to disrupt the PVE aspect of the game for such a small crowd. Thats where they will lose me.

 

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Rift suffers from the same thing that most MMOs do. PvP is an afterthought. Sure it is kinda fun, but it is meaningless and repetitive.

For PvP in an MMO to be and remain fun it has to be a centric idea of the game from the ground up. The only game on the horizon where this seems a possibility is GW2.

 

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For PvP in an MMO to be and remain fun it has to be a centric idea of the game from the ground up

Name a game with a healthy population that this is the case.

 

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