The pbt runie will usually be paired with a 41/35 or 47/26 SM, that's what i meant when i talked about the spirit debuff assist. And if you go that way 2xDruids/1xBard/1xWarden as opposed to 2xHealers/1xShaman/1xSkald means loss of pbt, but it also means loss of DPS on the warden slot. Skalds may not be top notch in the DPS department, but are certainly way up above wardens.

If you look at the 'balanced' setups right now they are more or less like this (by balanced i mean a group which has both frontline 'tanks'+ significant magic potential, and not particularly vulnerable to either tank or mage setups):

- Hib is 2xDruids, 1xBard, 1xWarden, 2xMages(eldritch quasi-mandatory), 2xTanks(French setups prefer BM+champ - interruption+mobility are our mantra -, seems like US setups include heroes or vamps more easily). => 2xFrontline/2xSecond-line (bard+druid)/ 4xBackline(2xDPS+druid+warden).

- Mid is 2xHealers, 1xShaman, 3xMages, 2xTanks(Zerk+Skald typically). => 2xFrontline/2xSecond-line(pac healer+shaman)/4xBackline(3xDPS+healer)

- Alb is 1xCleric, 1xFriar, 2xSupport Mage(Theu+Sorc), 2xDPS mages, 2xTanks(Merc+Minst typically) => 2xFrontline/ 3xSecond-line(cleric+theu+sorc)/3xBackline(2xDPS+friar)

You'll notice that 2 realms tend to play without a BG, which means they can deal with opposing tanks through other means. They might include one, instead of a DPS mage and do good, but they usually don't. In turn they get more DPS, and are almost as potent dealing with tanks in their backline.
BG tanks aren't a great need, believe me we wouldn't play with a BG warden on hib if we could deal with tanks the same way the other realms do(haste debuff+D/Q debuff+pbt).

The hib group deals with pets while their enemy will never have to bother fighting a pet-filled hib group since animist turrets aren't mobile and take ages to cast(5 second cast).
Specific hib problem with a BG: pets are usually dealt with magic damage and the hib setup lacks magic damage compared to the others because of the warden slot. Especially a problem with orange/red-con pets held by minstrels. Warden doesn't deal with 'killable' pets (theu pets, BD subpets) as well as a 2hander capable tank would.

Also notice that the warden is mostly a backline character, while the tanks are mostly frontline.
Logical consequence: the warden, a character which could perhaps bring useful melee damage spikes to the table (celerity+DA+EF proc can make a warden+BM assist very painful)is rarely in position to do so. Our hib melees can never benefit from a proper DA buff(DA spell= enchanter enchantment spec) which is especially essential as it is not affected by str/qui/haste debuffs, DA damage being stable over time, same as style damage.


There is only 1 slot for whichever mage class to pair with the eld, a slot in which you have to pick a character which will be lackluster either in damage spikes(mentalist), utility(enchanter), synergy(bainshee/animist, body dmg characters).

Best bet is 38mana/33ment mentalist(and high RR to avoid variance issues and hold a blue-con pet with the pulse charm)+mana eld in my opinion. But that's not scary for opposing healers while 30% body/spirit debuff assists clearly are to us hibs. Plus having only 2 mages and no damage-capable BG means that interruption is a more easily achieved goal for the opposing frontline tanks.


Alb gets a playstyle which is harder to manage in the principle, but potentially the most capable and versatile one since only the healing pair is limited to its role. Everyone else is DPS-capable. And they're the pet realm.
Mid gets ease of use, best mage synergies, best tank choice and synergies, pretty good pet-wise.
Hib gets ease of use too, more healing capable toons, a very strong second-line since the bard love, but weaker frontline and poor backline, very weak pet-wise.

The issue at hand being that, in this age of the game, healing versatility doesn't win fights as opposed to DPS-versatile characters(alb) or great specialist characters(mid).
In my eyes, the hib setups look like a toned down version of the mid setups.
The most direct equivalent mid setup would look like:
-2xHealers, 1xShaman, 2xTanks(identical til here), a 41/35 SM, a 50 suppr runie, a thane for BG. You'll find almost everything the hib setup above has, except...it's better: debuff assist potential for mages, better pet management(magic damage by thane), better melee DPS. The hib groups does have more pets, but that edge is provided by grey-con ones...

You can run a 1 healer group setup on mid perfectly fine. You run a 33 mend (or 32) 42 aug shaman, a 41 mend 30 pac 18 aug healer and a valkyrie (valk pushes with interrupts and his a secondary healer). The 'PBT runie' is a DPS class lol... The best damage train is the Suppression train on mid and is one of the best caster line ups in the game. The Dark SM, Split SM, Supp RM (with a bd pushing, but can still nuke off debuff) is such an amazing line up.. Sure, the Supp RM isn't nuking with a 219 delve nuke or w/e the Dark nuke delves at, but it still nukes really really hard with a debuff You also get red NS and a snare nuke as well as a AE snare nuke/pet clear.

Also in a hybrid hib setup, the tanks are not considered DPS.. They are just their for some pressure and interrupts. You hardly see a hib tank in a hybrid setup killing things. It all relies on the two casters (generally eld/chanter) to kill things... And you don't have to run a skald at all, but even if you did for the speed 6, it is still a great interrupter.

Another thing, if wardens were to get greaters, I would probably run the same setup we've been trying now (Bard Druid Warden Hero Vw Bain VoidEld and MentalismMentalist). The void eld is not going to nuke very hard at all, so it's not like giving a Warden a greater heal is going to make hib imbalanced.. Hib is already horrrrriiibbbblleee compared to the other realms by FAR.


To touch on your 'albs having greater difficulty'.. That's just wrong..

Most albs do something like 'Merc, Minstrel, Sorc, Cab, Theurg, Friar, Cleric' and generally a Body sorc or Fire wiz or maybe another tank for the last spot.

The minstrel is an INSANE interrupter (4 instants, movable mezz, melee, and a pet that can't be CC'd.. Oh yeah, the minstrel is un-CCable as long as its pet is alive..) One of the best classes in the game.

The merc is a great interrupter and also can put out some damage as well

To say a sorc can't dps is so dumb :< sorcs should be nuking for 500-600 with the cab debuff... They should be working together to kill things while the sorc is CCing in between...

The cab just blows stuff up and increases the sorcs damage when it nukes..

If you add a body sorc (that's what i prefer) or a fire wiz, the damage is even better.. You do not need a paladin for end regen because Improved Draught of Invigorations are good enough to sprint and use combat styles on (thank you friar end redux)... Though you could toss in a paladin and have him peel or even push with the minst/merc and even put down some DPS.

The theurg supplies PBT as well as amazing interrupts..

A friar heals for 800-900 depending on RAs and has the ability to long duration snare tanks if it needs. And the cleric just runs around shearing at bolt range and dropping 660pt heals into people.

Alb is by far the best all around, imo. Mid is great too.. The amount of people that can root in an alb group is amazing [3 rooters (or 4 if you add the bodysorc/wiz) and 2 mezzers (3 if you run the body sorc)] And it's even better in the mid setup... [5 rooters (6 if you run 2 SMs or 2 RMs and you have a debuff root from the BD) and 3 Mezzers (4 if you do 2 SMs)]

Hib his by far the worst realm 8v8-wise and the hardest to setup a pug for (unless you go 5 tank, which I hate)

The name of the game is 'How many DPS classes can I put into 1 group?'.. It relies on having classes that compliment each other while bringing the most utility into the group (pbt, CC, interrupts, heals) so that you can then fill the group with as many DPS classes as you can.

Hibernia doesn't have classes like minstrels, sorcs, bds, theurgs that make things easy.. A sorc being able to have red ST mezz, red AOE mezz (bolt range..) all stat debuffs, demezz, roots, ichor, 55% mezz reduction, conc, quickcast, and a dmg spell that's debuffed by a cab is so ridiculous it is not even funny..


I don't think you've played this game in the last 2 years or something.. Or at least I hope not.. :<

I would go more in depth, but I don't think you'd understand and I'm not in the right state of mind.

 

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A heal warden can work, even now when they only have Major heals (but only with the right setup I believe)

Here's a video of us running it a couple weeks ago for the first time (we're still figuring it out, but I think it will be viable)

http://etilader.com/donks/Obelisk/HealWardenJune2011.wmv


In this setup, the bard can hardly heal at all since it must be applying pressure and usually isn't free very often. The greater heal and spec group heal are wasted when given to the bard in 8v8. I do the majority of the healing on Warden (every time I have played a heal oriented Warden in a group I have out healed the Druid by a large amount) It would not overpower the setup (since it's hib and hib is meggggaa bad), but I think it would help it out a bit :>

But yeah.. the bard having greater heals in an 8man is totally wasted when it would be so much more efficient to give them to Wardens.. It wouldn't overpower hib at all.. If anything, it would nerd hib small mans a bit.. which would be okay I think.

 

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I'm not sure if you know, but Runemasters now get a 179 delve Base-line nuke in suppression (spirit damage) So do SMs.. Changed the game up quite a bit.

 

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It seems as though you've not played in a while, unless I'm reading it wrong.. But the best setups I've run into as of late are:

Mid:
Pac Healer, Aug Healer, Shaman, Zerker, BD (interrupts with Zerk), Dark SM, Split SM, Supp RM

Alb:
Cleric, Friar, Mind Sorc, Cab, Theurg, Merc, Minst, BodySorc or Heretic

Hib:
Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden , Enchanter, Light Eld, BM, Champ


It's laughable to say that the hib setup is any where near on par as the Alb/Mid setups. Also.. The enchanter is so a horrible class it's not even funny imo.

 

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I don't have any issues doing this on my pally...


Point is, as someone else summed it up pretty well. The warden can't heal and use any other abilities at the same time (out of position for celerity to do anything), and it's heals are worthless unless they spec specifically for them and nothing else, then they only meet heretic level (who gets more dex and dps/peels along with its heals). This arguement that a healer shouldn't do any damage is pretty retarded when you compare the other healer/dps classes, since they all out dps the warden: Friar (oh snap, 2h battlemaster with end reduction), Valk, Heretic (melee or caster, it out dpses the warden), heck even a sham with no cave spec out dpses a warden. Same with the other Celerity/melee classes: Skald, Pally.

The warden needs either better heals (become a rejuv friar) or better dps (LW/CS). I'd prefer LW over CS myself, but either seems necessary, and as I don't see mythic taking away bard heals and giving them to wardens, give them something to make them hit harder than a wet noodle.

 

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A bit of both, actually, since i re-activated recently and i was mentioning balanced setups, which is why i put an hypothesis of skald+zerk on the frontline. But i remember confronting DW4RF B4SH a lot with the mid setup you mentioned, last winter. The BD can actually walk into our lines just as safely as a heavy tank would, thanks to the low backline hibernian DPS. While a good innovation, i find that possibility completely absurd. I wonder if they even bothered to patch the body debuff still interrupting?

The 2 other realms setups you describe fill mostly into the mold i gave, they differ in the approach on certain classes: for instance my team -Resilience- would have never fielded a chanter unless we had the occasional classic mage trio for frontiers roaming. We prefered mana eld+38mana/33ment mentalist by far. Points of detail anyway, your setups do fit in the general system i tried to depict.


As for LW vs CS, i believe LW would be more logical lore-wise as CS-polearm seem heavy tank-specific, other than that it's a matter of personal preference. Spear has better styles and access to the best 2Hander weapon in my opinion, i also prefer spear aesthetics.
It'll probably remain a dream anyway since Mythic doesn't seem to care much about hibernia's structural handicaps.

oh, I wasn't talking to you :> I was addressing the guy that said hib is the easiest to fill in DPS classes when compared with alb and mid

 

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yeah, I'm the guy that hasn't played in some time and is slowly getting it back into gear.


And it's been three times longer than two years. A lot has changed, some I can figure out, some I have to get accurate information from here, and the rest will have to come through exp.


I appreciate the positive feedback and all of the updated info. It's a great deal more informative than negative feedback or questions about if I've ever played DAOC. It's obvious I've played before, and it is equally obvious I haven't played recently.

Sorry if I came off as a douche :<

 

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