Well said Arc. Although I will disagree that Wardens do EVERYTHING badly.... If you're good enough at it Wardens can be, imo, pretty clutch. One of my old guilds never ran with a Warden in their group until I joined up and they realized that a Warden(played well and intelligently) can be a brutal force to deal with. We may not be the heavy hitters or the big healers but we keep things from coming undone.


As far as protection goes I'd take a Warden over any other class in the game for my 8man.

 

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I understnd the warden is no tank. But to say the Warden needs more after they have so much already is ....?greedy?


I think the friar is a close cross realm counterpart. Original classes. And the Friar seems to be more dangerous in terms of melee performance.


But go ahead and list all of the abilities a Warden gets and then compare them to a list of abilities a Skald gets, a thane, a minst, a champion, a friar. You would expect these original hybrid classes to be a mixture of eachother, but the warden seems to have a bit of it all except CC and long range damage ability. Well, the friar has a nice set of skills but nothing as comprehensive as the warden.

You would think Shield spec would have been enough overpowerig. I mean 6 sec pbt and shield spec? Might as well put advanced evade III on my thane. Give skalds 2.0 and duel weild and let friars block projectiles physical and magical with their staff.

While we are at it let's give armsman 'advanced deflection VII' in a 360degree arc because they are themshelves a walking shield of platemail.


and what exactly would CS do for a Warden? They have craptastic weapon skill. They have superior attack speed, perhaps that is the reason they do not get CS. 6 sec pbt, max attack speed, end regen buff, self buffs, self heals, speed, scalemail, parry, resist buffs. All we are missing is an insta mezz and a long range DD and then Hib could retire all it's classes and roll out with 8 wardens. Ok 7 wardens, you need one druid for resists.

Give Wardens greater heals and call it a day.

That'd fix most of Hibernia's problems.

Edit: also take greater heals away from bard. As well as the spec group heal.. Give that to Wardens as well :> The Bard generally doesn't have time to heal in groups and this would allow for 1 Bard 1 Druid 1 Warden groups to work a lot better than they do now. Warden would = Friar, for the most part.

(Right now, most grps run 2 Druids and a Bard. You also really need the Warden for resists and PBT. They lost their 9 second slam and have always been the worst peelers and are stuck with only a major heal. It is really a wasted spot.. Give them greaters, drop a Druid and call it a day)

 

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QFT

 

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Well, it looks good on paper to give wardens big heals and take them away from Bards. But I'm not sure what problems Hibernia could possibly have concerning an 8 man.


Rigt now all you need is a Bard, Druid buff, Druid heal, Warden and then 4 DPS classes.

and you could conceivebly already run a Bard, Druid buff, Warden heal with 5 DPS classes.


To put the same group together for mid you need Healer pac/mend, Healer aug, Shaman aug, Skald, Runie pbt. and that only leaves 3 DPS classes. ( skald isn't a DPS, pbt runie isn't the same as a DPS nuker ) and this group may still be missing some buffs with only one sham.


Alb has even greater difficulty


Minst speed, Sorc cc, friar resists, cleric buffs, cleric heals, Theurg pbt, Pally end regen, and room for 1 DPS classes. ( now the sorc is a full blown list caster, and the theurg kinda is too, its an odd class, so Alb can put together atleast 3 good DPS characters.)


I think the last thing we need to do is make it easier for hib to put an 8 man together with the versatility of being able to pick up ANY 5 dps classes.


Alb and Mid can put together a comparative group but without the freedom of using a variety of DPS classes. So Hib can have three players be the core of the group and pick up any classes to go rvr with while mid and alb have to put together more players to achieve the same core.

I'm not complainng about realm balance between 8 mans. But I'm complaining about making it easier for hib to put them together, it's already the easiest realm to do so.

i guess you never played 8vs8 or/and you are new to daoc.

 

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@Istvanarcher10

It's not about getting the most abilities. It's about getting the most bang for the buck with 8 characters. Your skald which isn't a DPS does more dps than a champ for instance(unless he uses RR5 on an armored character, double high delve DA just rocks) and your pbt runie will usually have the opportunity to DPS through spirit debuff assist. Which character can a warden player assist to DPS better or heal better?

As for 1druid-1warden, i suggest you try. I doubt a standard group could do that without being too familiar with a /release macro. A pure healing warden right now is not an asset, but a sacrifice, contrary to a friar. Hib groups don't need 4 healers, but they do need 2 main healers.

Its just been quite some time, I've been working my way back slowly. I just don't have as much time as I used to.


But aside from just accusing me of being new to daoc or haveing never played 8v8 before, alluding to your personal superior knowledge and experience why not just correct my old information with some current information.


I mean, the Bard still has CC, Speed 5, Heals, Max base buffs cause his spec line for speed is also his baseline buff spec, power regen, end regen, Mezz dampening, and two instant dd's just like the skald and minst still right? ( even thogh I've never had a bard hit me with 2 dd's, I've never seen a bard fight either but they do have weapon spec )


So lets go to mid. Skald for speed 5, Healer for CC, power regen and Heals, but his baseling buffs aren't maxed, Shaman for end regen, and there is no mezz damp skill in Mid as far as I know. So we need three mids to do what one hib does and still fall short of mezz damp and spec baseline buffs.


lets go to alb. Minst for speed 5, Sorc for CC and mezz damp and power regen, Cleric for heals, Pally for end regen. So we need 4 albs to do what one hib can do.


Is this accurate? I know the other classes that mid and alb have to bring to the table have other group friendly skills. But hib can still cover those skills with less classes and wind up bringing in more skills that Mid and Alb have to compensate for.

@ ArcApt


I understand it's not solely about the amount of abilities but it is in part. To get the most bang for your buck Hib still has an easer time imho. Even if you can't run just 1 druid. You have Bard, Druid, Druid, Warden and ANY 4 classes you want. Once you get Bard, druid, druid, warden you have the core you need for any group composition. Alb and Mid just can't cover all of the same bang with the same buck, 4 toons.

And this has wandered from the original thread about Wardens. And I may have been the cause of it.


When did Champions fall to the wayside at lvl 50? Should be the same WS of a skald, but champs get evade I, str/con debuff, and a DD that used to hit hard, isn't champs spell damage based off of STR? ( which is odd to me, but it's what I heard a long time ago as an explanation why a champ dd hit me for 300, because he can buff his damage stat, and a skald/thane cannot ) Champs used to wreck people in melee, maybe it was their superior support?

and yeah, the pbt runie can assist from range but not with a spirit debuff.

But I wasn't comparing the advantages a Runie and Skald bring to a group the Warden cannot. Hib is Bard/Druid/Druid/Warden. Mid is Skald/Healer cc/Healer resists/Shaman/Runie/.

Mid's got 5, Hib has 4. The warden can manage to take the place of a skald, melee capabilities that neither group should rely on. This leaves Hib their fifth slot for a class to outperform the damage a pbt runie can deliver and bring more abilities to the front. Like an Enchanter or Eldritch.


I mean if the warden has no viable active roll in an 8man he still brings plenty of group friendly abilities that increase the groups overall performance/prowess. I still think the last thing Hib needs is major heals on the warden so you can drop one druid in a 8 man group.

I also fail to see the benifit a warden would get from CS except he would be a spear weilding hybrid tank with self end regen, buffs, heals, parry, pbt, self speed, and very fast attack speed. He may need something, but not major heals or CS. imo anyway

The pbt runie does not have spirit debuff. Not even in his runecarving line. That would be the Spiritmaster.

a bard will not hit you with 2 dds, because those are not for dps, those are interrupts, just like minst and skald. any of these classes hitting you with 2 dds in grp vs. grp combat is a horrible player. bards don't spec/use weapon because they can't swing a weapon and play songs at the same time (come on, you knew this, didn't you?).

buffs are not relevant, since everyone uses buffbots (ever heard about them?) and maybe even charges (can't be sheared by buffshear spells).

power regen is not relevant, power is not a ressource any more. you have nearly infinite mana with a myth, pots and charges. + you can have power regen 4 from a potion. even endureg is not an issue, since you can use endu 4 pots + a myth (and endureduce as a grp-buff if you play alb).

mezz dampening is not relevant as a group-buff. the only realm that can get this as a group-buff is albion.

instant dd is not relevant in comparison to other realms, since there are tons of classes with lots of instas (minstrel, bonedancer, reaver, valk, tic,...) and we didn't even speak about other interruppts (pets ne1?).

what you seem to forget while counting all the things hiberna has available to support-toons, you not only totally forget about all the stuff hibernia lacks (just look at classes like bonedancer, theurg, minstrel, spiritmaster), you also seem to forget about all the other stuff that alb/mid toons bring into a grp (mainly dps, sorc/rm can't do dps? wtf?). maybe also take a look at the things a grp gets when abilities of chars are combined. if you have a pbt runemaster in your setup, you will of course have a spirit debuffing sm in it too. if there is a bonedancer, you have 3 chars that can do major dps on a single debuff. same goes in alb for cab & sorc.

maybe try some of your decent paperdaoc hib-setups on agramon for a few nights and you will see for yourself what is common knowledge for people who actually play(ed) 8vs8.

 

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