The unique selling point of the game is RvR, although that doesn't mean PvE should've been ignored entirely.

It's a shame that over the years they didn't manage to separate the PvE and RvR sides of the game, as a large majority of casual players like PvE. Over the history of the game, nearly every time they add items or an encounter it's nearly always something which forces RvR players back to PvE otherwise they're at a disadvantage. They add in a limited supply, and force everyone in the realm to fight against each other to get the new items.

It would've been nice if more of the PvE had been a separate path, allowing them to add far more additional content with PvE only items or PvE focused abilities.

This was a problem with the people who attended the raid instead of ToA. Don't get me wrong - I lead a few Caer Sidi raids when it was the to go place for loot and my experiences sometimes made me want to strangle people over the internet too.

However, none of this speaks for problems inherent to ToA itself. If we compare such attendees to what one sees in WoW, I will tell you that it's a problem with selection. In DAoC, ML raids were often open to every random stranger that wanted to join and there were no repercussions for their actions; at best they would die and at worst they would wipe the raid. In WoW, you'd be booted from your guild (the people you completed PvE content with) for the kind of behaviour you mentioned.

I understand your point, but 90% of such frustrations would have been prevented by the raid leader being more selective about who could attend. DAoC players at the time would have screamed elitism! at such a concept, but fact is being selective forces people to maintain a certain standard of behaviour and performance. Simply allowing bads (the lowest common denominator) into any kind of raid was a certain way to cripple the raid to its level of incompetence.

These were not issues inherent to ToA itself, but to bad players joining the public raid.

 

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I am of course glad to hear that the stupidity was not confined to just Midgard





Well to counter those arguments (and please correct me if I am wrong. I have never done a raid in either EQ or WOW):
* WOW did not exist at the time. I am not sure the large scale raids of Everquest existed at the time either in quite the same sense for that matter - and that was DAOC's only real MMORPG competition at the time. There was not the expectation of the raid as a concept as it now appears in MMOs. Most of the participants knew nothing of such things and there was not the experience built in the playerbase for what to expect.
* In WOW, the raids are set up as X number of participant encounters are they not? I recall people speaking of 40 character raids in WOW in the past, and smaller ones since. In TOA, I don't recall there being any limits, certainly there were massive crowds on the trials I did. Its been a while, but I would not be surprised at a suggestion of 100+ participants at the time. I am sure that WOW has tools (battlegroup chat or its equivalent) that were also not present if I recall correctly. In short, the Trials were not designed to the degree that a raid is in a modern game.

The biggest problem with TOA had little to do with its actual design, or the difficulties of completing the trials etc. It had to do with the entire philosophy of the expansion. When it was announced, we were assured that it would be purely PvE content, that for those of us who were primarily focused on RvR, it would not be a real factor: the stuff you could get in TOA would be nothing more than "nice-to-haves" in RvR terms and would not significantly affect RvR gameplay in any way. We were being fed bald-faced lies of the first order, since when it went live it became quickly obvious that the items from TOA, the abilities gained, etc would have a massive impact on RvR. If you didn't do the trials and get the new Artifacts, you were hooped.
Thus the game expansion promulgated as "PvE Only" was quickly made mandatory for the "RvR" crowd. It forced those focused on RvR to engage in endless hours of PvE. This is the big failure of the TOA expansion.





I agree. I doubt the knowledge of the raids was as well defined as it is for most modern MMOs, but I agree if the participants had been selected based on their ability and reputation from previous raids, it would have been a much simpler process and much less frustrating. Its hard to recall what was happening at the time but I know everyone felt they had to participate in completing the Trials so they could return to RvRing - and I don't recall ANYONE who liked being forced to do so, or be left completely behind.





They were issues inherent to the design of the expansion, as well as to the nature and standards to which players participating in the raid were held (ie no qualifications to participate at all). ToA was the expansion where they could have decided to make a huge improvement in the PvE part of this game without harming the RvR portion of the gameplay and without forcing people from either camp to participate in it. That should have been obvious to any designer, but apparently they missed the memo and instead an expansion that forced gameplay on the same crowd that complains on these forums about how long it takes to level up a new character to 50 (almost 9 HOURS!), were forced to engage in a style of gameplay they didn't enjoy at all, for many hours on end, just to continue playing the style of gameplay they did enjoy without being at a significant disadvantage.

Now that they have removed most of the obstacles, TOA isn't nearly as bad as it was - but I would still play on a Classic ruleset if it existed as a server option. I would in fact still prefer to play on a Classic RP rules set had that ever existed

 

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Most assuredly they did.

In the original EQ there were four (?) planes that were raid events. In many ways it was just like ToA in the sense that you had a giant gaggle of players told to stand in a safe spot and a few knowledgeable others handled the pulls. Things went wrong all the damn time. (see this bald spot here? EQ did that to me.)

Also remember, post-wipeout clean-up was critical in EQ because people HAD to get their corpses back. (Thank you, thank you, thank you DAoC for NOT doing that to us!)

 

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Corpse runs were one of the main reasons I positively LEAPT to DAOC when it came out. Never had the slightest inclination to return to EQ. I didn't do any of the raids there mind you, never got high enough in level I guess (level 30 something on an Iksar Warrior)

 

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1) No corpse runs.
2) Quest mobs give credit/drop quest items for all group members.

I wish DAoC had LotRO quest/map system, though. I liked how some LotRO quests would shade a region you need to visit on your map to perform a quest. Exploring and learning the lie of the land is fun, but ferchissakes give me an idea of where to start!

I've been look at some old quests at 'ZAM and the stories are great but the all text directions were eye-bleedingly horrendous.

And that goes double for the low-level Catacombs quests. Hib's Veil Rift was so much easier to navigate because it was essentially linear. Roman Aqueducts: now that was damn scary. So frikken easy to get lost!

What other big revolutions in quest handling I have missed?

 

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Indeed. I kind of liked it, though.
This detail combined with the fact that there were no maps helped me to explore and memorize especially the classic zone and SI in a way I don't achieve if there are in-game maps.

For example I could still find my way around in Old Frontiers with closed eyes, avoiding the main enemy routes as well as the monster camps. I don't think I have the same in-depth knowledge of new frontiers. I sure spent much time there but usually with the map open.

Yeah I know what you mean. That was Midgard for me.

But what did I spend an inordinate amount of time doing my first year in Midgard? Making maps! Ahhhhhhhhhhhgggg!

Then in 2004 I tried Hib and I remember tramping up and down this road looking for a tower that had a Guardian in it I had to talk to for the Finding Glory quest. Up and down this road in Bri Leath up and down. Checked websites. Asked on VN. Went back. Retraced steps. Found the tower months later accidentally.

Never again!

 

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Fie on you sir, fie!

At least keep the SI zones and quests! <3 Mid and Hib SI

I admit it. I'm an Arr lover. Many a time I've had a warm glow all day after reading "WTF is an ARR?!?!? That *&$&$&* bird ganked me! QQ" in region chat.

And you haven't lived until you've seen Cronwort, Fuilwort, Marfoirwort, and Tachtwort pillage Altan Ferran.


Also, how could you possibly say no to a freakin' ship in a cave?

Have you no decency, sir?

 

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