First of all, my apologies if you understood that I was denying you the right to talk about anything. Actually, I was pointing out some logical fallacies in your previous post.


First off, the "Thanes have templating problem". Yeah, I guess we all agree that thanes needed something to be done there. But when people point out other class have trouble with their templating, you discard them because they can lifetap ? Ok, dude. If you say so. I am so stupid I didn't understand lifetaps could be used to improve templates. Thanks for the tip, bro.

That's exactly as if I was complaining about VWers' problems to make decent SCs, then someone came and said "yeah, it's the same for Thanes", and I answered "No, Thanes are ok with their shitty temps, since they have access to chain and can spec shield".


You repeat the same scheme with hitpoints. How did heavy/light tanks get involved in your comparison ? We don't know. All we know is that they can hit enemies in melee, just like thanes. Should that entitle thanes to get as many ? Why not give thanes as many HPs as mages instead ? Afterall, they can cast spells just like mages, too.


So again, it is easy to create an arbitrary set of classes, and to make thanes look pitiful in that particular set of classes. It could be done with any other class, doesn't make your point valid tho.

No problems I understand what You say(type) perfectly.

But I'll try to further explain, thus my point easier to fathom.


1. I don't discard other classes issues with templates - how did you end up with that idea? Nor did I discard any other issue for that matter - you got that wrong(as said, maybe I didn't express myself good enough). But primary focusing on one class, means by itself that any other class get less focus in that context(and thats Not the same as discarding - wouldn't you agree?).


2. It's true that we could argue what different classes got/ain't got, and we will get nowhere except sparring match of words. Thus look/research that Actual performance - regarding:

- Survivability.

... and you'll notice that ALL melee-hybrids got ok/good/really good ways of surviving in dire situations(no matter if in superior or flawed templates), instead of no good way(class wise) of doing so(like regaining health), on top of their other abilites - the Thane and Champion would be the exceptions(however, Champions could easily have a superior template).


3. "How did heavy/light tanks get involved in your comparison ? We don't know. All we know is that they can hit enemies in melee, just like thanes."

That should be obvious beyond reason:

There's more classes in Daoc to fight, then the other melee-hybrids. And to compare with - regarding melee/armor/defence, and more.

And having by class-default less hp, less defence, less resists, less toys, less armorprocs, and less survivability - compared to say heavy and light tanks, AND on top of that having a flawed template, AND on top of that - no way of making up for those problems, thats why the tanks got mentioned from the very beginning.


4. My points aimed to explain why these changes to the class Thane, was about balancing, about bringing the class up, closer to most other classes template stadards(and about why bringing the Thanes defining weaponline up beside the other two weaponlines that the Thane got). By explaining that unlike all, the Thane can't cope with it's template issues, such as all the other melee-hybrids could.

I think it's more clear to you now, that my start in that post, this: "It's rather something that to a degree fix layered problems.", would be/is about the Thane, and different reasons why That class was/is in need of a fix/balancing - and how come it's just bring the class closer to where it should be. And had nothing to do with discarding any class or any class issues with a template or anything else.


5. As a side note, guess my second main class?

(yupp, the VW - thus I know lots of the bad and good stuff with the class - and I enjoy the VW almost as much as a Thane)


6. "So again, it is easy to create an arbitrary set of classes, and to make thanes look pitiful in that particular set of classes. It could be done with any other class, doesn't make your point valid tho."

This doesn't apply to what my orginal post was all about - again, that post has nothing to do with anything you'd implied this far.

And no, you couldn't do that, "just like that", and still have valid reasons - such as the player base(that got good experience with Thanes AND other classes, such as the VW, as an example) expressing that the Thane really underperform, and in many cases would be cannon fodder. As well as having Mythic agreeing upon that.

Of course you could try, but with no valid reasons, it won't really work.

But if you had a valid point, you could make a valid and working statement.


7. "Ok, dude. If you say so. I am so stupid I didn't understand lifetaps could be used to improve templates. Thanks for the tip, bro."

Good way of missunderstandning my post/points. If anything, lifetaps could improve the longlivity of the class, Even though it got a template in need of improvment - but thats a strength of the class itself(and no, that still doesn't mean that the class should be discarded or shouldn't have a fix/balancing of it's own - it just means that a VW got a better chance of coping with it's own flaws.


8. I hope you ain't trolling me.

 

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Changes to Thanes is long past due. Unlike most other hybrids they have a hard time because of the nature of their hybrid-ness. Tics and VWs for instance (if a tic can be called a hybrid?) are already wearing cloth, which is good for casters. And it also is able to get melee components because of these classes. Thane was in since release though and they never really gave it much thought to put casting/tank stuff on pieces of chain armor.

I'm not so sure they did the thane right, because if you look at hibernia's "caster-hybrid" tank you'll see probably the only class that has had no major changes since release and probably still to this day one of the most well balanced classes to date. Only thing is its not a true caster and doesn't really need to template in caster stats.

I've always loved the idea of thanes, or even champions getting an actual casted DD, but never really played one to high level. They are in a boat, with a few other classes (bard comes to mind) that are hard to template and get most things that they need covered. While some other classes, hybrids in particular with the astral gear, that can template and get most of what they need np.

I feel these changes are in the right direction, it will still need a few more steps, but as is they are good changes that were needed. I miss seeing them hammers...Probably my favorite spell effect in the game, even though I'm a diehard hib.

 

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Thanes should be just fine now. Sure, they aren't going to own everything, but their templates should leave no holes, BM styles are full usable now, and WS/style changes boost their melee to where it should be. Obviously, changes are not live, but the ability to have better melee stats + boosted WS, + new sledgehammer will allow much greater DPS. These changes are probably best reflected in their cumulative benefits.

Just look at the third template I posted on mid melee boards. Only has 2% range, but it has +5 shield, +8 parry, 400 hits, 88 con, 75 quick, 101 dex, 93 str, 90 piety, 10% melee spd, 10% melee dmg, 8% style dmg, 10% spell spd, 10% spell dmg, and good resists. Has Astral cloak and FSQ/Bewitched large shield too. (still work in progress).

Every class could 'use' a boost, but what more can Thanes ask for?

 

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I'm a natural born troll, so I can't always tell wether I'm trolling or not .


Coming back to templating issues, my feeling on it is that you can't use a very situational spell or to discard the need for improvements. For instance, the lifetap is very situational : it won't help you in a group, it won't save you against some kinds of enemies, and when you're in these situations, your template won't be there to back you.

Thanes also have some signature abilities which can help them out of some situations : they have an insane burst which can help them against some kind of enemies, they have a long range which can give them an edge in some situations. But it is still not always enough, and that's where template flaws hurt most.

So, in any case, templating problems shouldn't be mistaken for or mixed with class strenghts and weaknesses in my opinion.


Coming back to thanes, I explained several times my opinion on them this patch, and honestly, except for the piercing buff which is huge, I still don't think the changes will help them to get groups. The good news is that Mythic also decided to nerf some mage defensive toys. If they follow this path, maybe bodyguards will shine again.

Yeah, most/all classes(or melee-hybrids if we choose to have the focus there) have something to do in dire situations, and it won't always work, far from it - still, also to have the possibility to "do some misstakes"(as in playing a bit "wrong" or having a flawed template) and be able to heal up in one or another way - helps a bit extra - but still no reason to not fix/balance no.


And yeah, Thanes could do some burst damage, if high rr(and invested heavily into MoM, WP and AugAcuity) and a really good template, and debuffed the enemy(a debuff that last 10 seconds on a 0% energy resist enemy - and more like 3-6 seconds on a tank/dem vamp, etc, and 5-7 seconds Vs most other classes). But yeah, when "everything works your way", the damage numbers could be quite fun - there's some potential/possibilites there.





Could be there's a better way of fixing the template issue(and all the problems that follow with that) - but of what I've seen on VN this far, for the first time, is really good Thane templates(although no where perfect, the removed need for spellpiercing items could only do that much(still 75-85 con, low qui and parry and shield just got a few points, etc) - but good all around - no really big holes no more), and that's something fantastic for the class/players.


Thus it's(spell piercing buff) succeeding with it's purpose, allowing Thanes to get closer to the tamplate standard of most classes - while at the same time, not actually have the class be able to pull off more dps, nor with melee nor magic(since Thane players probably always ran around with 10% spellpiercing anyway, at lvl 50, if having a decent(to a Thane, that is) template).





In several cases, it's actually a weakness of a class, if it got issues reagarding templating(and that, could "co-operate" with some other flaws or abilites that is meant to be rather weak - to the point that the spot that is meant to be weak, become broken).

 

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Grats Thanes, this will help a lot~

 

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You people who SOO excited about thanes now are just plain stupid, and probably haven't played a thane very much. You know how much this patch is going to help me? About 0% percent because people who know how to put together a legit template already had close to everything. Now they've just made it easy so everyone can have a perfect template. You know how much that is going to help vs all the other classes that already have perfect templates? 0% because you haven't actually boosted the class at all other than putting the same dd on the lvl 32 hammer style. Once again...NOTHING significant has been added to thanes.

1) Easier to template by not putting 10% pierce
2) Hammer line same as Sword line now
3) Endo buff which no-one needs anyways because everyone should always have 100% endo


How can you get excited about that when you know that is the last time this class is going to be touched till they pull the plug?

 

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Post ur current template pls ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they boost the WS on the hammer line? If you go 50 hammer and land your parry chain you're looking at a high GR chain with a combined 250 points of energy DD. With the WS boost, that's looking pretty good on paper.

 

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