FWIW, that EULA has been in every release of Sort It!, Make It! and Find It! since they originally came out (at least since the public release of combat macros, not sure which came first). It has been 'click to accept' during the install for that full time, so it HAS been disclosed, just not publicized. Arch_Magi is helping immensely with the publicity

Proof that ANY EULA you come up with can have special cases. This is also one of Turbines problems, and one that people have trouble understanding. It is the difference between attending a macro and attending an alarm.


In this specific case, here is how I would read it. It! and *Tank are NOT installed on the same machine, meeting the 'letter of the agreement'. The products created by Make It! are NOT being used for macroing (using my definition of macroing), meeting the 'spirit of the agreement', so this usage meets the both the letter and the spirit of the agreement.


In another case, the selling of arrowhead created by Make It! This is definitely within the realm of allowable use. If somebody REALLY wanted to be picky, they would sell them with the request that they not be used for macroing. Obviously not enforcable, but at least continues the spirit. In my mind, since a seller (in general) does not know the intended purpose of the items, there is no violation of spirit. However, if you were making that sale with full knowledge that they were going to be used for combat macroing (one of your toons sells it to another of your toons?) then there would be a violation.


Like UCM regulations, enforcment is probably impossible without undue interference into the privacy and rights of individuals. So, I make the EULA, and depend on the general 'goodness' of people to honor that. Those that do not, classify themselves accordingly, and as a strict pagan with a firm belief in the great Mandala, their future rewards will vary accordingly.

well said Gouru.

Ah, so people can ignore your previous statemenet then ...


"Using Make It! to make arrows that Lifetank uses later when macroing is 'using them togeither' even if not run at the same time. So 'in my mind' having both installed is 'using them together', but I perhaps did not make that clear in my license messages." - Gouru


Ok


As far as "It is the difference between attending a macro and attending an alarm." ... did Turbine change the CoC on that? I just thought they said that you had to had to "Allowing your character to gain experience points by engaging in combat without being at the keyboard, ready to respond to an Administrator on demand (this activity is commonly called a "Combat Macro"."


I don't see anything in the CoC that even mentions the word "alarm". Feel free to search for the text though, my web browser may be broken. http://www.fuzeqna.com/asheronscall/consumer/kbdetail.asp?kbid=305

of course that's not what it means. are you deliberately misreading things just to cause controversy?


tevatron is not using Make It! to make arrows that lifetank uses later when macroing. the one statement has nothing to do with the other.


the thing you don't seem to be understanding is that it's possible to use eltank without using it to macro. eltank does do other non-macro things, after all. and if you only use the eltank non-macro parts, and you use it on a different computer than Make It! is installed on, then you are obeying both the letter and the spirit of the EULA.


-ken

the CoC may not mention the word alarm specifically, but it doesn't mention the words "eltank" or "lifetank" specifically either.


the question about alarms is part of an explanation about how the CoC is interpreted, and how it is enforced. here's a link that you might find useful:


http://vnboards.ign.com/ac_developers_board/b5142/57256430/p1


the gist of it is, your macroing is considered attended if you are ready to respond to an admin. if you are not ready to respond, then you are unattended.


and here's the key: if you are not ready to respond until after the admin alarm goes off, then you were unattended up to that point, and attended afterward. this is why the UCM test has a time limit; it is specifically designed to catch people who are running an unattended macro in conjunction with an admin alarm.


-ken

I never had reason to read the It! EULA because like I said I used Robochef before TOD. When I read it I specifically installed it on a non-Tank machine. And I installed it after I had made a donation. Had I known the spirit of the EULA about using crafted items with Tank I would have certainly asked clarification. I think this all got spun up pretty fast and I threw the D word out there when I shouldn't have. And for that I apologize, Lattes are very very important! And your time to make these applications is also important.


But...

I've decided to remove ElTank and MakeIt! from both machines. If infinity was working then this would be a non-issue. If I could code of course it would be an even mooter (is that a word?) point. If I just kept my mouth shut, used both programs and said to hell with anyone elses morals/opinions/ethics then I suppose this all would be moot as well. But that's not me.


I understand that I'm keeping within the written EULA having one program on one machine and one program on the other, and the spirit of the EULA since I am not using crafted items for combat macro purposes. But this has all gotten way too political for me.

Political is what Arch-Magi is about. My best guess is he likes to intentionally misstate what people say in order to cause controversy, thus the very first post in this thread. I wouldn't let him upset you.


And now I remember why I quit posting here. Time for another vacation

MADNESSSSSS!

 

-----signature-----

Although this discussion is interesting, I think it's moot. I'll tell you why (I hate raining on anyone's parade).


First of all, I don't have xTank installed, and I personally think combat macroing, whether ACM or UCM, is lame. In fact, there's no difference between ACM and UCM. The only reason for the distinction is that there's no way to definitively "catch" someone combat macroing if they're at the keyboard (practical versus ethical). It's funny (lol) that, over time, ACM has become acceptable and good while UCM is a crime. Think about it and you'll see the comedy in it.


But I digress. Even though I respect Gouru's position, I do believe that the clause being discussed in his EULA is illegal. It smacks of violating constitutional rights. Just because you put an illegal clause in a license agreement, and someone agrees to be bound to it by clicking the OK button, does not make the clause legal. Think about it. We're talking about copyright, not contracts. It's just not legal to say something like, "By opening Time magazine and reading Gouru's column, you agree to not read elgarl's column in Newsweek magazine."


If Gouru insists on having that clause in his eula, he should consider adding this to protect the rest of the EULA from being null and void:


=================

SEVERABILITY


To the extent that any provision of this Agreement is declared by a court or other lawful authority of competent jurisdiction to be invalid, illegal or unenforceable, such provision shall be severed and deleted or limited so as to give effect to the intent of the parties insofar as possible and you and Licensor will use their best efforts to substitute a new provision of like economic intent and effect for the illegal, invalid or unenforceable provision, and the remainder of this Agreement shall continue in full force and effect with respect to all other provisions.


=================


Now, I've noticed mention of "donations." Remember, if you click the paypal button and "donate" some money, you are not donating to a cause or charity. This is Shareware. Shareware is delivered free, but you should (not must, it's voluntary) pay a small fee if you like and use the software regularly. Gouru's plugins are at least shareware because they have license agreements (EULAs). They would be public domain (where donations would make sense) if there were no EULA.


This, by the way, pretty much means that you can ask for a refund if the author does not want you to use the software.


I think Gouru can make his point on his website and at plugin install time. I would respect it. He just can't put it in his EULA.


IMO, the reason the debate on this thread is so heated is likely because it's about whether someone has the right to restrict the liberties of another.