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Author Topic: Dev Watercooler--Cataclysm Talent Tree Post-Mortem [Locked]
Kriegprojekt  3 stars
Posts: 590
Registered: 2010-4-12 13:06:28
Broken_Kayfabe posted:

All the stuff you posted



I really, really agree with what you said. Sadly, the B team wont ever understand this.

 

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Milkman - Guardian Bard
GutterSludge  4 stars
Posts: 1,034
Registered: 2005-11-6 10:54:55
Boone,

The type of balance that you describe is impossible with the WOW model.


WOW already tried that, if you think back to the MC days...Fire mages were completely useless in there. If you don't give every character access to all possible damage types, you cannot balance a game in the way you describe, you actually unbalance it in favor of one "spec" over another. Play that spec, or don't see the content.


AC is a good example. Every single player had a fire weapon, cold, acid, piercing, slashing, blunt (if your class allowed it)...You didn't have to completely re-spec your character from one encounter to the next...just switch your weapon or wand, and change a spell tab and you were good to go.


WOW is not set up that way. Either all damage types affect 'dragons' the same way, or one (or more) spec(s) is(are) completely obsolete. We know this kind of focus us very unpopular....Think back to the end of BC and beginning of Wrath...

Want to PVP? That's fine, as long as you don't mind playing a Ret Paladin.
Want to do Arenas? Fine, as long as you have a Resto Druid for a partner.


Yes it would fit the "old school" rules of RPG's better if fire hurt cold, acid hurt stone, cold hurt fire etc etc...but If the A team didn't implement this in the beginning, there is no way in hell the B team can achieve it.

World of KotickCrawlerFacebookCraft is not going to alienate anyone who plays a certain class in this manner, and quite the contrary are going to great lengths to make things "balanced".....


If you want old school "balance", it would require changes in the talents, changes in the weapon TYPES, changes in the damage TYPES, and massive changes in the loot tables.

Not going to happen.

 

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Azure-TheBlueOne  2 stars
Title: Made in Alaska
Posts: 319
Registered: 2003-2-24 19:25:37
Broken_Kayfabe posted:

"Balance" to smarter people than GC, and to most RPGers, is to make sure all classes bring something that isn't replicated by someone else - abilities or powers or whatever - so that everyone feels there are situations where they are valuable rather than just a number. Properly balanced games do not worry about whether or not the warlock is doing equal dps to the mage in the fight, as long as the warlock has situations where he shines and the mage has situations where she does - encounters that make the raid leader go "I'm glad I had that guy with me for that one".

RPGers also know that, when it comes to RPGs, the fun actually comes from the details that come from things NOT being equal. Blizzard doesn't get that. White dragon more vulnerable to fire? Happy fire mages. To Blizzard, this is bad. To them. fire mages shouldn't do more than other mages and all dragons should be the same.

This


Also, Boone, out of curiosity what makes you say that there is a population exodus after every major expansion, when there has been a major press release from Blizzard AT or 2-6 months AFTER a major expansion's release (except Cata) showing an increase in the subscription numbers by at least 500k?

Each expansion besides Cata has shown tremendous growth in subscription numbers.

 

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Quazimortal  4 stars
Title: The One and Only
Posts: 1,557
Registered: 2004-9-18 21:52:58
Haven't you guys learned by now, Boone knows everything and if you disagree you are obviously wrong.

 

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Azure-TheBlueOne  2 stars
Title: Made in Alaska
Posts: 319
Registered: 2003-2-24 19:25:37
For ease of reference:

1st Press Release, prior to TBC release, 1/11/07 - surpasses 8 Million.

The Burning Crusade released 16th January 2007. Press Release from Blizzard, 7/24/07 - surpasses 9 Million.

Press Release prior to WotLK release, 10/28/08, surpasses 11 Million.

Wrath of the Lich King released 13th November 2008. Press Release from Blizzard, 12/23/08, sub base reaches 11.5 Million.

10/07/10, Base reaches 12 Million.

Cataclysm released 7th December 2010. End of March 2011, subscription base down to 11.4 Million reported by MMO-Champion as being reported by Mike Morhaime CEO of Blizzard.

http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/press/pressreleases.html
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2293-WoW-Loses-600k-Subscribers-Diablo-3-Beta-Q3-2011-Arena-Passe-Blue-Posts


I'll end by adding that Cataclysm broke previous selling records held by the previous expansions, and yet, today, subs are 600k lighter. Which has never happened after an expansion until now.

 

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Groooovechampion  1 star
Posts: 229
Registered: 2003-6-30 16:36:01
Is it me or are they talking like cataclysm talent tree system was something revolutionary.

 

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Kriegprojekt  3 stars
Posts: 590
Registered: 2010-4-12 13:06:28
Groooovechampion posted:

Is it me or are they talking like cataclysm talent tree system was something revolutionary.



To GC, anything he has a hand in, IS revolutionary.

 

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Milkman - Guardian Bard
Boone-Eldar  2 stars
Title: Infallible
Posts: 273
Registered: 2001-12-28 16:31:37
GutterSludge posted:

Boone,

The type of balance that you describe is impossible with the WOW model.



I will just stop you there. Please read my posts and find where I am asking for or even desire "balance".

All I am saying is that for things to be truly balanced everyone would need the same abilities. That is it. Not sure how you can argue it. I am not advocating it or even suggesting it as an option.

 

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Seriously?
Boone-Eldar  2 stars
Title: Infallible
Posts: 273
Registered: 2001-12-28 16:31:37
Azure-TheBlueOne posted:

Also, Boone, out of curiosity what makes you say that there is a population exodus after every major expansion, when there has been a major press release from Blizzard AT or 2-6 months AFTER a major expansion's release (except Cata) showing an increase in the subscription numbers by at least 500k?

Each expansion besides Cata has shown tremendous growth in subscription numbers.



It was in the same press statement where they revealed the subscription decline. They also mention that most of those subscribers end up coming back and anticipate them doing so again.

 

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Seriously?
Boone-Eldar  2 stars
Title: Infallible
Posts: 273
Registered: 2001-12-28 16:31:37
TruthyID posted:

Boone-Eldar posted:


Also, there's a difference between having an "agenda" and having an opinion. There's no movement afoot to bring Blizzard down, there's just a group of dissatisfied customers who think that the current management team (Kotick, GC, et al.) is taking a game that we love in a bad direction.





Please. The same people bashed the previous dev team as well.

 

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Seriously?

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