Most companies would be happy with just having the number of people they claim to have lost since the expansion, hell its still more than RIFT has.

 

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"So as we're heading further away from an expansion launch, it's normal to see some declines," he continued."



He means except for all the other expansions. Yeah, that's it.

 

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Bingo.

 

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Exactly.. or are we not further from BC and WOTLK?

I don't agree. The supposed "WoW killers" failed simply because they tried to copy WoW, but failed to deliver similar or better quality. They failed to achieve what WoW achieved with Everquest. Nothing more.

There are a lot of people out there who don't know anything better than the EQ clone model (which is also the WoW clone model of course). You tell them about UO, about AC1, they wonder how those games have worked without raids. Typical WoW player who never played anything else reaction towards Guild Wars 2 when he saw the class videos with the kickass moves showcased: "won't that look weird in raids?". True story.

Guild Wars 2 seems to follow the AC1 spirit, makes you really feel like a hero, you, even just you alone. This is totally opposed to the forced grouping present in EQ clone style games.

I personally hope both SW:TOR (in the WoW clone category) and GW2 will succeed. But I've already said that about all previous games almost since WoW release in 2004. SW:TOR, if Bioware doesn't screw up (and EA/Mythic, the worst part of the deal), should be able to drain a decent part of the WoW "raid or die" population. If Arenanet doesn't screw up, GW2 should be able to drain another big part of the rest, among which most MMORPG veteran who know better than the EQ clone model. What Blizzard needs badly is a huge slap in the face. The ridiculous sub number loss with cataclysm is a sad joke, and won't affect them on the long term, they still earn more in a month than most if not all western MMORPGs in one year. What's needed for the MMORPG player community is that for once, the devs of new games don't fail. No more Conan, Warhammer, Aion, Rift, etc... because for all that we know for now, GW2 can also be the next big failure, and so can SW:TOR.

 

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^^^
Agree that most games that copy WoW fail (Rift was my last one... instance queues and BGs again). I'm hoping GW2 breaks the mold enough for my liking. I have too many MMO boxes sitting in my corner as it is. Not holding out a lot of hope for SWTOR. It doesn't look like a long lasting MMO apart for a few crazed star wars fans. I give it 3 to 4 months.

 

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Well, I give SW:TOR definitely more longevity than e.g. Rift because of Bioware and the story centered gameplay. The lore in Rift was basically non existent. I hope SW:TOR will keep me busy until GW2 with that aspect, making it more than another "pew pew" game. It's only hopes though, and I won't buy it until I've tried it for free first.

Back on topic though, I don't see WoW die anytime soon (soon meaning, the next 5+ years). Even if SW:TOR and GW2 are both successes, WoW will still sport its huge subscription numbers and will remain viable for years and years. There are a lot of players who aren't ready for a change, they are comfortably installed in their daily WoW routine and don't even consider starting from scratch in a totally new game.

 

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As I said before agree to disagree on the point of why other games have failed.

As far as Blizzard needing a big slap in the face, this we can agree upon. The game and Blizzard for the most part has become stagnant and complacent with WoW and its development. It being the King and all is impressive, as are the numbers of subs that it has and how many would crave to have those numbers. It is one of the reasons you say in your next post that it won't "die" anytime soon and will still see a long life ahead of it. Yet to the opposite side of that is that without any real competition to the game, Blizzard hasn't felt the need to actually innovate and try to improve, in my opinion at least, the game because it hasn't felt the need to do so due its place as King.

Overall I think we can both agree then that the desire to see both TOR and GW2 succeed and have a high number of players, figuring GW2 won't have subscribers, is the best thing that can happen to both the MMO genre as a whole and actually WoW.

Now as far as TOR is concern as I said I have my reservations of the game and actually one of the Biggest is how they are handling the overall aspects of the game. I am wary as well and remember the well the whole Mythic and WAR fiasco. I am seeing in many ways a similar type of issue occurring with TOR. Espcially since they are claiming copyright to take down videos of the game, that don't even have Beta leaked material. I'll post a link to a youtube video discussing this. So the only place you can get videos or information about the game are from what EA/Bioware is allowing to be put out there on their own sites and what they give gamesites. Not even fan made video of the game being played at a Con. Now, I don't think that the results will be the same, but I also think it would behoove EA/Bioware to drop the NDA well before release, not two weeks like they did with WAR.

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That's why, in my opinion, you fail to appraise the real reasons of why those games failed. WoW cloned the EQ game concept, and succeeded. Because they didn't simply clone it, they improved it. Rift, Aion, Warhammer, etc... (and even arguably LOTRO, even though that game is decently successful) tried to do the same with WoW, but failed at improving the concept. Therefore they created a sub par WoW clone, and players were all like "why do I play this crap, when I can play the much better original".
You can clone the WoW concept and improve it. And even more nowadays. Problem is, nobody was up to the job until now.

 

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WoW is still the best MMORPG out there but it has been years and cata was and is a weak expansion. Bliz management has nobody to blame but themselves for letting down their players in that they continue to let GC and the stooges run WoW into the ground.

When WoW hit it raised the bar for quality standards in MMORPGs.

At the same time, the number of players in the genre increased dramatically while the quality of player dropped equally dramatically. The new generation of MMORPG players is selfish/solo/me-first, less willing and able to figure anything out, antisocial, generally helpless, and so on.

With cata bliz largely embraced this new generation of MMORPG morons, I guess...I really can't figure out what their design goals are/were, why they gutted so much of a runaway successful game, why they borked raiding, or why GC has a job.

The biggest failings of cata are -

- repeating wotlk content (rep grinds and instance flow) exactly with nothing new or fresh. Previous expansions refined questing, leveling, rep grinding, instances - cata copied wotlk and added nothing (except reintroduction of tedium maybe, in that 5-mans are longer and more complicated, which is fun at first, til you're grinding them into dust for emblems and it's all brutally tedious)

- shifting to 10 man and coming out with normal/heroic modes allowed more people to raid than ever before in wotlk, then in cata they pulled the rug out, ratched normal up too high, and shifted raiding back to elite raiders only, tearing apart guilds, causing more player movement than ever, wiping out endgame for many - dumbest move ever

- gutting too many core systems of one of the most successful games ever - you don't redo or "fix" what isn't broken


I would also imagine that this suck economy we live in is a factor too. There are less luxury dollars to spend. If you're burnt out on your MMORPG of choice you're probably more likely to cancel than to keep paying while you're taking a break or not playing. If you have no job or times are harder, you might not wanna pay game subs. This is probably a small factor in WoW having a decline rather than the attrition or slow growth it has previously experienced.

...on top of GC and the b-team running WoW into the ground.

 

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