Therein lies the rub. What he's saying is that if you have an ineffective HR department, you have no legal recourse.

It is sad, but the idea of listening to the actual profanity being used is actually a good one. If they accidentally use a disparaging term for a protected class you instantly have a case. That just shows how pitiful the law is.

They shouldn't allow that because it's bad for business. And in a super extreme case it might even end up being intentional infliction of emotional distress.


It doesn't violate employment law. And it doesn't trigger any of the anti-retaliation provisions.


If you complain that your boss is being mean to you your boss can fire you for it. The law will not protect you.


If you tell your employee they can't be retaliated against when in fact they can you are setting them up to get fired. You seem like a good manager and I'm sure you would feel really bad about that. So it behooves you to understand the law a little better before you assure others they are protected when they actually arn't.

A hostile work environment is an element of harassment. The difference isn't subtle at all if you work with employment law regularly.

Like I said, it's obvious the management has already broken down here. The consensus for the correct course of action is to go to HR, it seems. Nobody is debating this. What's confusing some of you is whether or not allowing a hostile work environment is a crime. It's not. That's not to say you couldn't leave and sue the employer, but that's an extreme case and a longshot.

 

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My tactic when dealing with /rage co-workers (assuming they aren't armed) is to speak with them calmly but loudly enough for my other co-workers to hear and bring the conversation directly towards their behavior when they start raging. It often doesn't take more than a few reasonable questions and pleasant observations before they totally lose their cool and self-pwn hard enough that management has to respond and deal with them in front of the office.

 

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It is a sad day for the Outpost when Rakhir is right about something. Although he isn't quite right here because it has to be pervasive to be a HWE.


But it is definitely worth listening to the abuse. If she goes around calling women sluts or bitches and that sort of thing there is more of a legal case there.


That said - and this is REALLY important and something lay people often don't understand - the law is a last resort. You never WANT to be in a situation where you end up suing your employer. People have these fantasies about it being an easy payday or something. It isn't. It's awful. And the employee loses at least 8 out of 10 times.

What about wrongful termination suits?

Projection? That's what he actually said.

We actually have a [somewhat] similar situation in this office. A long time employee uses very vulgar language at times and she is quite loud. Her manager knows of it because she is speaking to him when she uses it. However, her ire is directed at our customers...not at any employees. (She's in Tech Support) She definitely fits under the "asshole" and "not professional" category and you definitely know when she is on the floor.

 

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@demonic


Here in the United States we don't have a system where the employer has to give a good reason for firing someone. We have a system where the employer can fire someone for no reason, but not for any reason.


You cannot fire someone for being black or a woman or for reporting discrimination against asian people or (in many cases) for reporting safety problems at work or that sort of thing or even for no reason at all.


You can generally fire someone for almost any other reason. You can fire someone because you don't like the color of their tie or the sound of their voice or because they complain you are being mean to them (not based on some protected catagory). None of those are protected.


There are exceptions to this general rule. Employees with employment contracts can only be fired for good cause, for example. Most employees don't have an employment contract, though.


IIRC there is also one state somewhere that isn't at will by default. Somewhere in the midwest.


Many European countries are different and you have to have a good reason for firing any employee at any time.

Ahh okay, I was just curious because I was told by my district manager that if I am going to fire any employees that I better have a good documented reason for it otherwise I could get sued for wrongful termination. Whereas my last job in Florida I was told that I could fire anyone for anything if I felt like it.

Well the reason for having a good documented reason is to avoid lawsuits based on some sort of discrimination.


If you fire a woman and she sues you and says you fired her because she's a woman saying "no, I didn't fire her for being a woman, I fired her because I felt angry that day and wanted to take it out on someone" is not very convincing or likely to help your case. Even if strictly speaking you CAN fire people just because you feel like it, it's always better to have a good reason you can bring out in case anyone questions your decision or claims it was based on some impermissible reason like race or sex discrimination.


You also might have employees with employment contracts but I really doubt it because if you did I doubt the company would give you authority to fire in the first place.