Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
angryranger posted: Lol, why would happy players flock to WOW? Toa drove them away, lol!
because warcraft is a hugely popular game franchise, that drew players away from many other games as well, the same % of players left most other games... if daoc had a drasticaly larger % of people leaving then all the other MMOs, then you could blame it on DAoC's faults, but being that every game lost about the same % of subs with WoW release, its hard to say only unhappy people left.
WoW was a MMO that people had been waiting for sense before DAoC even went live.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
ArkadyTepes posted:
angryranger posted: Lol, why would happy players flock to WOW? Toa drove them away, lol!
because warcraft is a hugely popular game franchise, that drew players away from many other games as well, the same % of players left most other games... if daoc had a drasticaly larger % of people leaving then all the other MMOs, then you could blame it on DAoC's faults, but being that every game lost about the same % of subs with WoW release, its hard to say only unhappy people left.
WoW was a MMO that people had been waiting for sense before DAoC even went live.
Most people I knew didn't even know wow before it launched. They knew blizzard though. Just like fail hammer.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
WOW was incredibly well designed overall, and it made things very easy for players. It eliminated a lot of the things that bothered people about other games - the death "penalty" is laughable for instance - and did so in a very polished manner. Never mind that I personally found the game very dull, very unchallenging, and that its version of PvP sucks IMHO, it appealed to a lot of people. Most players don't want an actual challenge when playing, they want the illusion of a challenge so that they can get the feeling they are effective and talented without anything to disprove them. I am sure its more complex and challenging at higher levels but at the levels I played it at - not.
The biggest factor in the massive success of WOW is in fact that people knew other Blizzard games, and trusted the company. Millions of people who would have never tried an MMO out, tried out WOW because of it. The end result distorted the entire MMO demographic and now everyone else wants to play catchup but never will because they didn't write all the blizzard titles that people enjoyed in the past.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
Relics
The idea behind a "relic" is teamwork. One of the challenges that challenges that idea in realm-wide teams is that you don't get to choose who is on your team AND so you are often competing for resources with the people who you are supposed to siding with. In DAOC perhaps the most extreme examples of this are the peculiar forms of 8v8 1v1 and other types of fighting where a realm-mate "helping" you a) hurts your "score" and b) often starts an intra-realm argument.
In looking at the evolution of the concept the public quest idea the public battle group idea is again missing the point. People want to be choosy. People want to play with their friends and acquaintances and not some anonymous idiot. I think the promotion of guilds and alliances is the way to go with that.
Realm Ranks
By far the most important thing listed. If your character is flat and doesn't progress it's not much of an MMO. If that progression is meaningless(inflated rps) or too steep(too much of a grind) it harms your game.
Realm Abilities
Sort of the same as levels. It's important to balance them. The NF "new" RA system that Mythic introduced didn't do a very good job of that.
Titles & Stats
Well first of all they they are stupid to add after the fact like what Mythic did. (Meaningless apples to oranges comparisons of old/new chars)
The titles are in my opinion somewhat a good thing because being able to differentiate and identify players in an MMO world that you don't know personally but are more inclined to play with based on how they play is a good thing.
The stats (speaking of DAOC ones) I don't think contribute anything good to the game and in many ways are harmful.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
RA's are nice, and I think they did a great job with the new NF RA's, at least much better than when they first came out.
Relics are meh; they change hands too much nowadays. Back in the day, when 150 people would show up to defend or attack, was a blast (Fury vs Crucible wars on Kay were huge fun). I think that teamwork is gone.
I think the best elements of this game are the ones that nobody else has. EQ had AA before DAoC had many into RR's, and now pretty much every game has some form of advancement (and skills to go with it) past max level. The key to DAoC's longevity is the RvR concept.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
Jumo_007 posted: I ask these questions for a reason:
There is a 3 faction pvp MMO being made (early stages) and a relic type mechanic may or not make it in, and PvP or Realm ranks and other Long term character goals may not be ready by release?
So, I ask the DAoC community, because I plan to submit the data. How important, to you, has the following been to the endgame and longevity of DAoC?:
Relic system?
I think the relic system is a good idea in general, but poorly implemented. The idea behind this game has always been large scale siege warfare (regardless of what the 8v8 and solo communities might try to say), the problem is it's generally not a huge amount of fun on a regular basis. Relics were introduced to give players a REASON to siege on both offense and defense. I think that the implementation leads to a situation as others have brought up where the rich get richer. If you tone it down, you risk having a carrot not worth going for. There's a fine line in there, and I'm not sure what the BEST answer is.
Realm Ranks?
The ranks in and of themselves don't hurt anything. It's some of RAs that are associated with them that can be the issue. The rank itself is just a neat way of letting your enemies see your accomplishments in RvR. It would be nice if that was also available as a title for your own realm mates to see.
Realm abilities?
Ah realm abilities. Here's another carrot to make people want to RvR. Realm abilities are another good idea imo, with horrible implementation. Players need a way to see character growth in end game as well. RA's/RSPs provide that. The problem is implementation. The passive RAs are great. The big, active abilities are where you run into a problem, where it gets easier to beat people without. The fact is, that players with talent are going to win regardless of the RAs in play. Giving them access to powerful active RAs just allows them to curb stomp the lower rank players (who are often worse players) that much easier. Players aren't going to stick around if they do nothing but get their butts kicked. That's simply not fun. Changing the system to only passives allows characters to still grow, without creating the huge disparity between the haves and have nots. Also, long duration timered abilities are not as much fun as things that can be used more often.
Titles
I've separated these two because I don't have a one answer fits both. Titles don't really hurt anything, I see no point in not adding them. It's fluff that doesn't change much of anything game play or community wise. Players like them, so I'd leave them.
lifetime stat tracking?
This is an idea that SEEMS like a great idea, but imho, has been a community breaker from day 1. While a lesser evil then things like region chat, stat tracking adds little and provides assholes everywhere all the ammunition to be jackasses to people. We all know that whenever you have the internet, you're going to have internet tough guys. Those guys are going to look up people's stats and use it to flame them. Jackasses make people not have fun in the game, so providing those kids ammunition to allow them to be the jerks they want to be is just a bad idea. They are a very vocal minority of the players, so there is no need to cater to them and give them anything they want. If you're going to run players out of a game, dumping the asshats is a good place to start.
You also have people concerned about their stats, and will focus on that...not to mention watching the RP lists with familiarity trying to climb them. Just kick back and enjoy the game and don't worry so much about the meta game. I know when I played 8v8 back in OF I was constantly looking at the rp lists to see where I stacked up. Upon reflection it didn't really matter and I might have had more fun just relaxing and playing.
My answers in blue
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Jumo_007 Title: Brehon Buddha Posts: 138 Registered: 2006-7-11 08:09:31
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
Thanks for all the replies, I read them all and enjoyed, and agreed with most of the responses.
Yes, the questions were in reference to Prime. The things I asked, some may or not not be in at launch, or not at all. I have been trying to get the point across on the Prime boards about the importance of having long term goals and character development for the game. Some think 'to pew-pew' will be enough reason to pvp. Others arguing for weaker, softer systems, like no ranks so people don't feel left behind or overwhelmed by stronger players. Think I am fighting an uphill battle, so said my peace and letting it go.
Again, thanks for the replies.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
angryranger posted:
ArkadyTepes posted:
angryranger posted: Lol, why would happy players flock to WOW? Toa drove them away, lol!
because warcraft is a hugely popular game franchise, that drew players away from many other games as well, the same % of players left most other games... if daoc had a drasticaly larger % of people leaving then all the other MMOs, then you could blame it on DAoC's faults, but being that every game lost about the same % of subs with WoW release, its hard to say only unhappy people left.
WoW was a MMO that people had been waiting for sense before DAoC even went live.
Most people I knew didn't even know wow before it launched. They knew blizzard though. Just like fail hammer.
You dont even know anyone comluba and the 999 other "ppl" you have in your head does not count.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
Jocke-Percival posted:
angryranger posted:
ArkadyTepes posted:
angryranger posted:
Lol, why would happy players flock to WOW? Toa drove them away, lol!
because warcraft is a hugely popular game franchise, that drew players away from many other games as well, the same % of players left most other games... if daoc had a drasticaly larger % of people leaving then all the other MMOs, then you could blame it on DAoC's faults, but being that every game lost about the same % of subs with WoW release, its hard to say only unhappy people left.
WoW was a MMO that people had been waiting for sense before DAoC even went live.
Most people I knew didn't even know wow before it launched. They knew blizzard though. Just like fail hammer.
You dont even know anyone comluba and the 999 other "ppl" you have in your head does not count.
Spelling and English are your friend. I am so happy that you stalk me 24/7 so that you know who I know. Lol. toabot.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
OT-What if DAoC never had relics nor Realm Ranks?
TOA was the killer for DAOC. The casual gamer was not able to compete in the RvR portion of the game anymore. The TOA abilities made 2 classes of gamers. The haves and the have-nots. The casual gamer couldn't devote the amount of time it took to get an artifact and then level it.
Most people I played the game with had a real job and family. They played to relax and enjoy the community. TOA became a JOB! I remember one long Saturday morning with 15 guild-mates working together for 6 hours to organize and complete one artifact quest.
TOA came out and the people stayed because they loved the game and hoped the new changes wouldn't change what they loved. It did. Over time they left frustrated because they couldn't compete in RvR, which is what the game was about. The ones that stayed only did so because they didn't have anywhere else to go.
So they waited for WoW to come out. Half my guild left before WoW came out, the rest went to Wow when it was released. There were 2 of us left in my guild on Bors after Wow was released, but to suggest is was because of Wow being better. No, they wanted it to be better, but it wasn't. It also sent a message to Mythic about what the people wanted.
Mythic later realized what their error had been and setup 3 classic servers. I remember the 1st day when there were 3,000 peeps on a classic server and the lag whas insane. But the classic servers over time became another job and again the grind wasn't worth the effort. Plus, the community was gone/destroyed. Most people don't know how great it was to belong to the DAoC community. Fun people who were your family.
TOA killed DAoC. Just think how many subscribers where paying $15 or more a month? If i remember right, it was 80-120K. DAoC was the golden goose that TOA/Mythic killed.
