There is no way you can do it that way.


It would give some of the races way to high of an acuity stat for a hybrid.
It would be unfair to certain races as well,there would be almost no reason to pick a frosty thane etc etc.


The hybrids that have a harder time templating seem to be the caster hybrids and to some extent the healing hybrids as well.The more melee oriented ones can usually let the casting stats slide a bit with little effect on the overall outcome.


Bioware has to take an individual look at each of these classes imo and fix them based on the specifics of the class,not a blanket fix like you are proposing.

 

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There are two problems with this. The "pure" classes are so easy to template that they can often throw in many other low utility toys with nice /use abilities, whereas hybrids can only do so by leaving a few resist holes. So the added difficulty of being unable to maximize their stats is complicated by not having access to useful abilities.

Secondly, a hybrid who only focuses on one aspect of their class with a template (the caster or melee portion, whatever), is basically going to be a gimped version of whatever thing they're trying to do. A valewalker or thane won't be as effective at nuking as a caster is, yet they aren't as effective in melee as main / light tanks will be, even if they could get a perfect template. And since they aren't adding their casted dps onto their melee dps for the most part, you aren't seeing any increased effectiveness anywhere from being a hybrid. This isn't true for some hybrids, notably the ones with access to charge or the Heretic who's dps can be uninterruptible from range, but most hybrids don't have those abilities.

I can see some issues with a blanket acuity stat that's different from the casting classes, don't mistake me on that, but most hybrids simply aren't effective enough to be worth choosing over their pure counterparts, both due to templating difficulties and general effectiveness.

Think you missed the memo on what a hybrid is supposed to be...

 

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Ideally, the extra abilities a hybrid has makes up for their lower health / weaponskill / etc. to return them to a fair footing with the pure classes. This is not the case for the vast majority of them. Really, there's only 4 I would say accomplish that goal - Heretic, Valk, Vamp, and Savage, and some of those actually surpass the abilities of their pure classes.

My point exactly. You don't need a perfect template to melee successfully on a Thane/VW or any hyrbid. Try Clerics/SMs/Druids melee sometimes if you doubt a Thanes or (lol) VWs.

No one said that when you focus on one aspect in your temp, that this means you won't be using the other. I clearly stated that you would still do the other, but you might not have a pure class' perfect temp in that secondary aspect. Sure that further diminishes this slightly neglected aspect of your hybrid, but you're making up for it in the other area. Of course you can also choose to make much smaller sacrifices in both, and be about equally good at both, but overall you're still making a similarly sized sacrifice just spreading it out a bit more.

In my example I didn't say the caster-oriented Thane template would gimp every aspect of melee such as low STR & QUI, no ToA melee bonuses, etc. I said simply he may choose to give up some Parry & Shield, maybe also 2-4% of one or two melee-oriented ToAs, but this doesn't mean he can't melee.

You used to have to make *many* more sacrifices to one or more aspects on all hybrids, heck 10% RP wasn't even possible for a Thane for a long time IIRC. Now you even have several choices to get 10% RP on all hybrids & archers w/o requiring low utility artifacts like AT. Same for ML10 and SH items, with each patch hybrids are also gaining, so it's not accurate to suggest pure classes have been gaining more then hybrids. As we're picking up RP on even Assassins now, Casters are picking up ~101 CON cap because their casting related stuff is easy to max, but it would be highly unfair if we gained useful things and they didn't. You could certainly argue that hybrids are making out better in the deal, because obviously no cloth caster is maxing out his/her CON at the expense of spell damage, casting speed, and RP. So I'm guessing those must be more important then a few extra HPs?

There is certainly no blanket fix that will lead to an improvement in game balance for hybrids. Some hybrids need more boosts then others, and probably all have some valid gripes & complaints, but templating is IMO not a valid gripe as everyone is constrained by exactly the same system. If you're having issues templating for a class, chances are it's because that class simply has so darn much flexibility, and passing that off as a disadvantage is ridiculous.

And a change as the OP suggested would IMO do far more harm then good.

 

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i feel like you didn't read my post at all. :o

regarding valewalker solotemps, a perfect vision of this would be som, semirobe, 10% pierce, capped resists except maybe energy, decent stats/hits, decent meleestats while being weaponless, (10 meleespeed, as much meleedmg/styledmg as you can get), 10% castspeed, 101 dex and high int with s/s. doubleproc arm/legs would be the icing.

such a temp is not possible, that's why i told you that this is the premier league of templating. any other hybrid stuff is easy, with the exception of 10% resipierce valk grptemps, because those would require castspeed and healbonus with s/s and maxxed meleedps with ml10 spear + silence cloak. very hard to do, but at least not impossible.

 

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That's funny, I feel the same way when I read the below...





Cake. Eat it too. Is this part hard to understand?

You can't have it all, it's always been that way for hybrids and presumably always will be.

If anything it has gotten much better though in the past couple of years, because as I said each patch that introduces more powerful gear won't make pure class' perfect temps any more perfect, but it sure helps improve hybrid templates. Sure some hybrid classes have it harder then others to make good hybrid temps, so what? That is solely a factor of their variety!

Your retort to being presented with the argument that you're trying to have it all, is to tell me you have a hard time making a (nearly) perfect template on a VW that not only seeks to cap or near cap all important things, but also has powerful low-utility toys. And you feel I'm not reading your reply?

Show me a solo hybrid Flex Heretic template that matches the description of your VW temp, and *despite* the fact that they have a 10% RP buff is even close to perfect. Thanes are obviously in the same boat as VWs. Of course classes that have less versatility have it easier, so the purely melee oriented hybrids can make better temps, but even speaking from a Minstrel PoV I have yet to see a perfect temp that isn't missing some important things or makes other sacrifices somewhere, especially if we're talking a Thrust temp. (Or if any Minstrels actually cared about Stealth, lol! Try making a Thrust/Stealth Mini temp and get back to me on what that looks like. )

So if you want to achieve perfection --or close to it-- then make a pure caster temp OR a pure melee temp for you VW/Thane/Heretic and deal with the fact that the other aspect is not going to be nearly as perfect. Or make an "in between" hybrid temp that makes the sacrifices that you can live with the most. I don't think that asking daddy Mythic to give us the items to easily make perfect temps for all classes will lead to a more balanced game. It certainly would lead to less variety & more cookie cutter though, and personally I would think that's a shame.

 

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i don't even disagree with the majority of your points. the only thing i wrote in my first post was

"those are not hard to temp, valewalker solotemps are the premier league of templating imho - and valk if you want a really excellent grptemp with 10% pierce. -.-"

you quoted me and postet a wall of text which i didn't order.

 

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Windwalker,


your comments are based on a 2005 Daoc. the game has changed. Casters are stronger. Sealthers are insane. Primary melee's are stronger. Hybrids have been nerfed into the ground.


These template problems are widening the gap.


Look at todays game: compare a Heavy tank swinging at cap speed 2h with ml10 weapons after an 8 second slam and 50%+ magic resists before any toys to a modern hybrid. There is no comparrison.


Mythic really needs to take another look at all the buff's they have handed out over the past few years, and the strange nerfs aimed at certain classes but levied against whole groups instead.

 

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That's why you see heavy tanks chosen over light tanks and hybrids. Oh wait...

 

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