for maxing out the your damage on polearm or twohand line you need at least:

ENEMY_LEVEL + 2

within your 1h line. if you do not reach this point you get a damage reduction of up to 33%.

DAMAGE = DAMAGE * (2 + MIN(1 ; (1H_SPEC_WITH_ITEM_AND_RR_BONUS - 1) / (ENEMY_LEVEL + 1))) / 3

so what's the result of this mechanism?

1) when facing higher lvl pve encounters both polearm and twohand users deal lesser damage because of the lack within their 1h spec. for example a rr12 paladin with 50+22 twohand and 30+22 slash / crush / thrust that is facing a lvl 70 mob will have enough twohand spec to max his damage (ENEMY_LEVEL + 2 in twohand will let him hit with less possible damage variation). but the paladin is missing his 1h spec to do full damage. the paladin will only deal ~90% of the damage he would deal without the double spec mechanism.

2) the same effect is there when leveling up a 2h or polearm character. you do not have the skill points to get both 1h and 2h spec on the right level. you also miss + skill from items and rr to reduce that effect. so if you level up a double spec character it is leveling up to 33% slower (because dealing lesser damage) then any other character without double spec.

3) when doing rvr as a low rr paladin or armsman you also get a negative effect because of double spec mechanism. you have to skill much higher into your 1h line then high rr players have to in order to max out your damage. the low rr paladin is loosing skillpoints for chants, parry or damage. the low rr armsman is losing skillpoints for his defence. some patches ago left axt was altered to increase low rr players damage, this is also needed here. and keep in mind that the damage reduction on left axt for low rr player is far less then the damage reduction cased by double specing. also left axt had no utility drop off like a paladin has when not being able to max chants.

4) double specing has not a single positive effect on the user. all it does is forcing you to put skillpoints within your one hand line and reduces your damage if you do not do so. it force you to use a single damage type without any bonus. it's by far the worst mechanism within the hole melee system and again... without a bonus effect in compare to all other twohand weapon lines in all realms.


don't get me wrong, i am not calling for a over all damage increase on that lines or a huge buff. the only thing that i think is really important here is a huge reduction of all that negative effects. so how that could be done?

1) autotrain
paladin: remove autotrain on slash and add autotrain on twohand
armsman: remove autotrain on slash and thrust and add autotrain on twohand and polearm

this more or less does not change the total amount of skillpoints this classes get, but equalizes the 3 damage types when specing a twohand / polearm line.

2) change double spec formula
DAMAGE = DAMAGE * (2 + MIN(1 ; 1H_SPEC_WITHOUT_BONUS * 2 / OWN_LEVEL)) / 3

so this is "spec half of your level within your 1h line to max your damage". this is independent from your rr and item bonus! so this would remove problem 1, 2 and 3. problem 4 is still in place, there is simply no bonus for the double spec mechanism, but maybe that's how they want it...

with this mechanism a paladin had to spec 50 twohand and 25 slash / thrust or crush to max his double speced damage. same for armsman with pole or 2h.

This may be so.


Not to be contrary but just an observation: (Leaving out Hib melee spec's for lack of in depth knowlege.) But, style-wise isnt Two-Hand and Pole spec superior to Sword/Axe/Hammer?


What I see is that it takes as many spec points to do equitable damage Alb to Mid but with a few extra spec points invested, Alb 2h/pole can slightly surpass their counterparts dps (vs level50 opponents) and have higher utility styles.


Example from your chart on wiki:

level, name, to hit, defense penalty, endurance, style bonus

34, Defender's Rage, 10, 0, 5, 242, (125 / 3)

34, Polar Rift, 10, 0, 10, 219, (102 / 3)


Generally, Mid styles either take 2x the endurance, have less bonus to hit, have more defense penalty, and in addition are usually about 10% lower in style damage.


For a few extra spec points: 105-110% dps with better styles is > 100% dps with poor styles, especially when the spec points are availible. In my oppinion, Alb 2h/pole are quite compeditive and can be maximized beautifully.

 

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nope you are total wrong about that :-)

first take a close look to the endurance, defense and defense penalties on the wiki. you will see that each style line has strength and weakness in compare to each other. once a anytimer costs less endurance and the back snare costs more and once a back snare costs less then the anytimer. and so on, in the over all picture they are more or less equal in a "line-wise" compare.

then you should also keep in mind that a warrior (2.3) got the highest damage table in game. he will always deal a bit more damage then the armsman (2.2) does and a paladin (1.9). so even if the styles would be a bit better within albion, the warrior would "fix" this with his damage table setting. other classes like thane and valk could easily fix this with their dd procs on the styles.

and finally keep in mind that you get a "free" full spec'ed 1h line in midgard when specing sword, axe or hammer. in albion you only get a ~ 2/3 speced line with a much higher skillpoint cost.

just an simple example on that. a warrior with 50 weapon spec, 42 shield and 41 parry got maxed damage (2h and 1h in both pve and rvr) and a huge amount of defense. a armsman in compare can spec 50 2h / pole, 37 slash (at rr5) 42 shield and only 18 parry. he got maxed 2h damage (only in rvr combat, but not in high lvl pve encounters), he got much less 1h damage and he got much lesser defense. you should see there that the styles could never fix the missing 23 points parry or the missing full 1h spec.

so no! it's not true that you get any bonus "for a few extra spec points". there is no 105%-110% damage for this. you just spend much more points to get the same stuff, that's all. and it hits you harder if you got a lower rr.

Did not read do not care

 

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No. Both my Armsman and Paladin had no trouble ever in PvE/RvR and the Armsman does much better damage and has better styles than my Hero anymore.

p.s.

FU style change nerf to Hibernia.

 

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I'm pretty much at the point where I think that whatever Vanesyra suggests about melee in DAoC is probably right, because I think he knows more about the subject then that vast majority of people here...including yours truly.


Seriously though, this double-spec burden on Alb is a no brainer and has been for years. Only a fool who doesn't actually play Alb Ams/Palarin would think it's dandy that you have to waste so many points on 1h spec to make the 2h/Pole specs viable.

I think Mythic knows you're right Van and has for a long time, but especially at this stage of the game I see little hope of them using the resources required to fix this glaring disparity.

 

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Hmm interesting. Yes I also conceed Vanesyra has much more knowlege here than myself.


Yes warrior has about 5%higher weapon skill, some classes are much lower ie. Thane.


Some things not availible in Hammer/sword/axe:


positional stun >5 seconds

off parry stun (off block dont help much in 2h mode...)

low endo anytime (provoke has a -10 defense)

2h astral weapons with pbae pet (to disrupt bodyguard, amazingly useful)


I see more utility and at least 10% more style damage across the "used" styles. Just another perspective. Oh and while we are at it, give warriors Crossbow/Snapshot plz!

 

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Mids are really the only ones with the advantage... and it's not in terms of damage/styles, it's because they are able to stack their defense by dropping way more points in parry by only having to single spec into weapon.

Hibs still have to put points into their 1h line if they want to be effective in s/s.

Armsman generally put in enough to reach 34-39 for the 1h styles anyway, so as long as they are rr5+ they will be hitting damage cap in their pole/2h lines.

I never found this to be an issue when solo on my arms, but I did notice warrior's superior layered defense. Then again I had plate, superior polearm styles, and a superior rr5, so I wasn't ever phased by it.

 

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(edit: This is in response to your second suggestion, not the first)

I disagree that a change is necessary for Armsmen. In my experience and opinion, in a toe to toe fight, heavy tank vs. heavy tank, Armsman is superior. I've solo'd and dueled on Armsman and Hero quite a bit. Whenever I'm on Armsman, I never lose against a hero, and whenever I'm on my hero, I only win against armsmen who are either resoundingly sub-par or poorly templated/unbuffed.

As for your argument that they under perform in pve, I don't really consider it a necessity for change. On Gaheris, Armsman and Paladins are far often chosen over warriors and heroes for various reasons, the key reason being that with most epic encounters, melee damage isn't the preferred choice of dps. It just isn't as fast as the other options, especially for Albion considering they have the 2 of the 4 best pve casters in the game (theurgists and heretics).

But back to my first point; the main reason they have to sub-spec may be out-dated, but if the changes you propose were made, I believe it would be in favor of these classes disproportionate to the classes they compete with.

A final note: Sub-speccing to maximize overall dps isn't exclusive to Albion. All dual wielders have to do this.

 

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I was under the impression that Arms/Pally had to spec such as they do for having the best armor.

 

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