Windwalkr posted:
Not trying to be a jerk or get a flame war started.
Not trying to be a jerk or get a flame war started.
Np, nice civil discussions are most often quite fun.
Windwalkr posted:
^ No offense, but none of that sounds like anything that any other hybrid class in this game isn't facing(Only hybrid that somewhat could be on par with the Thane here would be the VW and perhaps the Heretic(but to a quite lesser degree), due to how the other classes actually function). I'm not saying they aren't valid issues, but much of what you say is the curse of the hybrid in DAoC(Only to a much lesser degree, yes). Wanting everything in your temp didn't used to work for pure classes either(Well since we aim for the time now and ahead, what have been it's not really an issues I'd say - if anything it's the same principle that have affected, as you wrote, msot hybrids and even classes for a long period, to some extent, where Thanes and VW's gotten the bottomscrape), and sure as heck wasn't even remotely possible for hybrids in the past, but now we're at a point where pure classes have it fairly easy to make perfect temps and can even load up on things that aren't specific to their class(Yupp, I agree - I see nothing wrong with that though - a fun development perhaps?), while hybrids still have considerable issues making remotely perfect temps(now here I won't agree, hybrids such as Champions, Paladins, Skalds(to a lesser degree), Friars, Wardens, Reavers either have it just as easy as heavy tanks, or somewhat harder - again, alot because of the very nature of the classes). Still hybrids have made considerable strides too with a strong increase in availability of Spell Pierce items for example(Yes, the recent enhancement have indeed been nice).
It's the same with RAs where many hybrids have no access to obvious hybrid RAs like Dual Threat, which of course Thanes do have access to(Yeah, and due to the layered problems of the Thane, thats pretty much really usefull at really high RR, if even that - partly because of the need to fill out stats, resists etc to get closer to other classes level, like a Thane need substanstial more rps into MoBlock and MoPar, then any other class that could spec into shield - again due to the layered problems of the Thane - not able to get half the shield nor parry skillpoints into template that most other shield classes could, even reavers got a easier time getting parry andshield into the template - thus a Thanes rps spring thinn very fast, if trying to match other classes, and still the Thane got no class specific way of either heal up or absorb damage - Champions got the very same problem, but 1. Champions could get about as perfect templates as heavy tanks, and 2. Champions could still maintain awesome templates, using a HoT proccing hauberk - where the Thane really can't(unless wanting to go for a lower tier armor hauberk, that also lach important bonuses, thus making it even harder to template the Thane), so even though Champions ain't good of in that department, they're alot better of then a Thane).
You're also comparing apples to oranges when you compare utility hybrids who have no ranged attack to Thanes(Yes and no, as hybrid classes(and hybrid is a hybrid is a hybrid), all suffer at least a little from the same promblem, but except for VW's(and as said, to a lesser degree for Tics,) Thanes get hit the hardest).
I don't think Thanes need love as much as they need a role in groups(One could argue they got a role, or even multiple roles in a group, but not near enough to be of intrest for most groups - thus some love in the group-utility area really seems like a good idea - no?), but they're far from alone in that gripe in a game of 15~16 classes per realm and only 8 slots in a group. You can't give many of these classes that what they really would need to get groups(I don't agree, it's possible to enhance each and every class i nthe game, at least a little bit - without making any other class obsolete - some need it more then other classes though, for different reasons - but since this is a thread about Thanes, I'd say thats why we mainly discuss Thanes in this thread)without instantly making another class seem obsolete.
It's thus the specifics that make things difficult for many hybrids including Thanes(May ot may not be difficult). What would you give Thanes right now that would truly improve the class? The range and speed of their DDs is already quite powerful and unique to Thanes. Their AoE DD's delve is at a cloth nukers level, with more range and radius to boot(True, and indeed thats probably Not, where the class need a boost/fixing - I'll mention about possible boosting/fixes further down).
From a melee perspective they have large shields & parry spec, chain armor, and can use 2hers. What else is there to add?(Due to many reasons(layered problems) mentioned, and even due to further more reasons - the return for the Thane is quite low - looks quite good on paper "in real" pvp fights it's another thing, 2-handed styled hit's that sometimes equal that of some other classes 1-handed damage - low ws and low ws-table is an issue here(to my knowledge lower then most other offensive hybrids) - together with low HP, notabel less good defence even if having the very same spec into shield and parry(not able to get it to any good degree in templates - unlike the other hybrids), have to waste more RA skillpoints to even out things such as defence, resists, hp - and still not actually succedign with it) It's hard to justify the often requested bump in damage table, because of their DD procing styles on top of their high defensive capabilities(Again, in actual fights, the amount of ra's to get good melee defence probably equal twice the number of ra skillpoints a heavy tank use(if not more))...not to mention their ranged & even AoE damage capabilities(Where we are today, in the game, the way it have developed, those things ain't near as good as one could think, there's so many ways of shutting down a Thanes casting, thus instantly removign the really godo thing going for them - and the utility of the nukes is to a large degree the offensive part of them, thus Mastery of Concentration just aint' a option - and the ranged(adn melee) energy debuff last 10 seconds, on a enemy with 0(!) energy resist, on heavies etc, it last 3-5 seconds, on most other classes maybe 5-7 seconds ). Even if you did bump it, it wouldn't make Thanes any more desired in groups, and would also only --at best-- slightly improve their solo experience(Due to all the layered problems of the class, add the -25% chance to block vs dualwielders, together with the nerf or slam, and one see that these "layered" problems I talk of just gets thicker and thicker - now I dont' say we should unnefrf the shieldchanges - rather that a class such as the Thane that gets affected so much harder then other Shield classes(due to inability of equal template, due to more ra points into defence, thus less into other areas, due to more crafted armor parts and less double- and heal proccing armor parts, with less bonus to healing then about any other hybrid is abel to get - and still maintain importatn aspects of the template ) - then Yes, the solo experience could indeed get a boost - but it's the usefullness to a group that also need soem tweaking).
They also have a solid RA selection and a pretty nice RR5, so again not much to change there.
(As explained, it's not near as solid one would think, due to the layered problems/issues of the class - the RR5 is in a few situations very nice - but all too often it's just like having another instant dd, on a 10 min timer)
The only thing left would be rather ridiculous additions to group utility, or Charge/Stoic, or something crazy like that...because IMO that's what it'd take to get them more groups in the current RvR environment. (Again, a similar issue shared by other hybrids in the game.)
(Yeah, those things should not be added, I agree - but there's ALOT of other ideas regarding boosting the Thaen somewhat in groupsettings - more of that further down)
What I would like to see is Kobold Thanes, as the race selection certainly leaves a lot to be desired and kinda makes a heavily casting oriented Thane difficult. (but I think this is why they got the 2.6s DDs, so Mythic may disagree with that too) The addition of a Heretic-like self RP buff would be a good idea too to alleviate some templating headaches.
(Hehe, yeah that I would like alot, Kobold Thanes.. *drool* - actually it's 2.4 speed nukes, the single ones - but with no rising dex as a stat, and high dex races(no Kobold!) it still needs alot of rps to get to the usual sweetspot of today for a thane, 350 dex that is(having to get augdex 6-8 and still having to spend 20+, or so, of the 30 character "starting" points, thus FEW left over points for piety, str, con and qui - more of the layered issues)
More hybrid friendly items in general would be a boon to see, but again historically Mythic has not budged on this either as they feel hybrids should make tough decisions instead of having it all.
(Yeah, more hybrid friendly item is indeed needed and wanted - although it seems Mythic work in that very direction)
Just my meaningless little 2 cents on the issue of Thanes.
(Opinions and thoughts uaully have at least some little meanign at least, and being able to present those in nice manners, make them even better, to me at least)
Not trying to be a jerk or get a flame war started.
^ No offense, but none of that sounds like anything that any other hybrid class in this game isn't facing(Only hybrid that somewhat could be on par with the Thane here would be the VW and perhaps the Heretic(but to a quite lesser degree), due to how the other classes actually function). I'm not saying they aren't valid issues, but much of what you say is the curse of the hybrid in DAoC(Only to a much lesser degree, yes). Wanting everything in your temp didn't used to work for pure classes either(Well since we aim for the time now and ahead, what have been it's not really an issues I'd say - if anything it's the same principle that have affected, as you wrote, msot hybrids and even classes for a long period, to some extent, where Thanes and VW's gotten the bottomscrape), and sure as heck wasn't even remotely possible for hybrids in the past, but now we're at a point where pure classes have it fairly easy to make perfect temps and can even load up on things that aren't specific to their class(Yupp, I agree - I see nothing wrong with that though - a fun development perhaps?), while hybrids still have considerable issues making remotely perfect temps(now here I won't agree, hybrids such as Champions, Paladins, Skalds(to a lesser degree), Friars, Wardens, Reavers either have it just as easy as heavy tanks, or somewhat harder - again, alot because of the very nature of the classes). Still hybrids have made considerable strides too with a strong increase in availability of Spell Pierce items for example(Yes, the recent enhancement have indeed been nice).
It's the same with RAs where many hybrids have no access to obvious hybrid RAs like Dual Threat, which of course Thanes do have access to(Yeah, and due to the layered problems of the Thane, thats pretty much really usefull at really high RR, if even that - partly because of the need to fill out stats, resists etc to get closer to other classes level, like a Thane need substanstial more rps into MoBlock and MoPar, then any other class that could spec into shield - again due to the layered problems of the Thane - not able to get half the shield nor parry skillpoints into template that most other shield classes could, even reavers got a easier time getting parry andshield into the template - thus a Thanes rps spring thinn very fast, if trying to match other classes, and still the Thane got no class specific way of either heal up or absorb damage - Champions got the very same problem, but 1. Champions could get about as perfect templates as heavy tanks, and 2. Champions could still maintain awesome templates, using a HoT proccing hauberk - where the Thane really can't(unless wanting to go for a lower tier armor hauberk, that also lach important bonuses, thus making it even harder to template the Thane), so even though Champions ain't good of in that department, they're alot better of then a Thane).
You're also comparing apples to oranges when you compare utility hybrids who have no ranged attack to Thanes(Yes and no, as hybrid classes(and hybrid is a hybrid is a hybrid), all suffer at least a little from the same promblem, but except for VW's(and as said, to a lesser degree for Tics,) Thanes get hit the hardest).
I don't think Thanes need love as much as they need a role in groups(One could argue they got a role, or even multiple roles in a group, but not near enough to be of intrest for most groups - thus some love in the group-utility area really seems like a good idea - no?), but they're far from alone in that gripe in a game of 15~16 classes per realm and only 8 slots in a group. You can't give many of these classes that what they really would need to get groups(I don't agree, it's possible to enhance each and every class i nthe game, at least a little bit - without making any other class obsolete - some need it more then other classes though, for different reasons - but since this is a thread about Thanes, I'd say thats why we mainly discuss Thanes in this thread)without instantly making another class seem obsolete.
It's thus the specifics that make things difficult for many hybrids including Thanes(May ot may not be difficult). What would you give Thanes right now that would truly improve the class? The range and speed of their DDs is already quite powerful and unique to Thanes. Their AoE DD's delve is at a cloth nukers level, with more range and radius to boot(True, and indeed thats probably Not, where the class need a boost/fixing - I'll mention about possible boosting/fixes further down).
From a melee perspective they have large shields & parry spec, chain armor, and can use 2hers. What else is there to add?(Due to many reasons(layered problems) mentioned, and even due to further more reasons - the return for the Thane is quite low - looks quite good on paper "in real" pvp fights it's another thing, 2-handed styled hit's that sometimes equal that of some other classes 1-handed damage - low ws and low ws-table is an issue here(to my knowledge lower then most other offensive hybrids) - together with low HP, notabel less good defence even if having the very same spec into shield and parry(not able to get it to any good degree in templates - unlike the other hybrids), have to waste more RA skillpoints to even out things such as defence, resists, hp - and still not actually succedign with it) It's hard to justify the often requested bump in damage table, because of their DD procing styles on top of their high defensive capabilities(Again, in actual fights, the amount of ra's to get good melee defence probably equal twice the number of ra skillpoints a heavy tank use(if not more))...not to mention their ranged & even AoE damage capabilities(Where we are today, in the game, the way it have developed, those things ain't near as good as one could think, there's so many ways of shutting down a Thanes casting, thus instantly removign the really godo thing going for them - and the utility of the nukes is to a large degree the offensive part of them, thus Mastery of Concentration just aint' a option - and the ranged(adn melee) energy debuff last 10 seconds, on a enemy with 0(!) energy resist, on heavies etc, it last 3-5 seconds, on most other classes maybe 5-7 seconds ). Even if you did bump it, it wouldn't make Thanes any more desired in groups, and would also only --at best-- slightly improve their solo experience(Due to all the layered problems of the class, add the -25% chance to block vs dualwielders, together with the nerf or slam, and one see that these "layered" problems I talk of just gets thicker and thicker - now I dont' say we should unnefrf the shieldchanges - rather that a class such as the Thane that gets affected so much harder then other Shield classes(due to inability of equal template, due to more ra points into defence, thus less into other areas, due to more crafted armor parts and less double- and heal proccing armor parts, with less bonus to healing then about any other hybrid is abel to get - and still maintain importatn aspects of the template ) - then Yes, the solo experience could indeed get a boost - but it's the usefullness to a group that also need soem tweaking).
They also have a solid RA selection and a pretty nice RR5, so again not much to change there.
(As explained, it's not near as solid one would think, due to the layered problems/issues of the class - the RR5 is in a few situations very nice - but all too often it's just like having another instant dd, on a 10 min timer)
The only thing left would be rather ridiculous additions to group utility, or Charge/Stoic, or something crazy like that...because IMO that's what it'd take to get them more groups in the current RvR environment. (Again, a similar issue shared by other hybrids in the game.)
(Yeah, those things should not be added, I agree - but there's ALOT of other ideas regarding boosting the Thaen somewhat in groupsettings - more of that further down)
What I would like to see is Kobold Thanes, as the race selection certainly leaves a lot to be desired and kinda makes a heavily casting oriented Thane difficult. (but I think this is why they got the 2.6s DDs, so Mythic may disagree with that too) The addition of a Heretic-like self RP buff would be a good idea too to alleviate some templating headaches.
(Hehe, yeah that I would like alot, Kobold Thanes.. *drool* - actually it's 2.4 speed nukes, the single ones - but with no rising dex as a stat, and high dex races(no Kobold!) it still needs alot of rps to get to the usual sweetspot of today for a thane, 350 dex that is(having to get augdex 6-8 and still having to spend 20+, or so, of the 30 character "starting" points, thus FEW left over points for piety, str, con and qui - more of the layered issues)
More hybrid friendly items in general would be a boon to see, but again historically Mythic has not budged on this either as they feel hybrids should make tough decisions instead of having it all.
(Yeah, more hybrid friendly item is indeed needed and wanted - although it seems Mythic work in that very direction)
Just my meaningless little 2 cents on the issue of Thanes.
(Opinions and thoughts uaully have at least some little meanign at least, and being able to present those in nice manners, make them even better, to me at least)
Not trying to be a jerk or get a flame war started.
Okay then, so what about the suggestions of different kinds of Thane enhancement?
There's several in the Mid Melee part of the forum, and most of them is about group-utility in the forms of a small degree of CC(snares, a short stun component to the RR5, single target debuffs(to avoid demezz a fg/zerg/etc, when trying to simple debuff 1 enemy to be able to do ok dps for a few seconds(about 3-7 seconds as it stands atm)).
Possible end-reduction chant or buff(either self, or take from Skald and move to Thane, thus the Thane finally able to use more then grapple and BG in it's good ML line).
Some rather weak(but still a bit potent) way of absorbing damage(heals/lifedrain would be nice ofc, but 1. Not going good with the mythos/myth of the class, nor with Thor, and 2. don't want to copy/take other classes ways of take damage, rather some way of absorb(electric shield of a kind("Thunderous barrier!"
or deflect damage(absorb soem damage, then able to unleash it back at the enemies, or that the absobed dps enhance the spells/melee or defence somehow). This is just but a few ideas - alot of good ones, and several not so good ones.Another thing that is very important for those who play and enjoy the class, even though it got some problems - would be a potent hammer-line, because anyone that actually tried to use Hammer spec in pvp/rvr, as a Thane, would know that a 50 hammerspec is not half as good as a 39swordspec, nor half as good as a 50Axe spec - and still the prefered weapon of Thanes should be hammers - Thor and his Mjollnir says so!.
Anyway, several good posts regarding the possible utility/class enhancement, in the Mid Melee section, as said.
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