deadcactus posted:
So I just had a thought. I'm new to rifles and coming from handguns. There are different handgun loads, but for the most part (excluding P+) the same rounds in any given caliber seem to kick relatively similarly and I think I transferred that concept to rifles without thinking. I shot a .308 and 30-06 a little while back, but only one kind of round in each. The 30-06 beat the hell out of my shoulder and has been a large reason for my preference toward a .308 since I couldn't imagine actually putting a significant number of rounds through the 30-06 on a range day.
Recoil is a product of a lot of things that can be modified. Obviously the first factor is the cartridge itself, the combination of powder and bullet weight are what provide the force. However, rifles with a lot of weight will counteract this as that weight has its own inertia - of course a hunting rifle is something you want to be light, so we'll rule out "heavy" rifles - you want to be at no more than 8 lbs with a scope mounted ESPECIALLY for a stalking rifle. I'm not sure how much hunting you've done but when you're on a long walk or stalk over who knows what kind of terrain, you begin to feel every ounce you're carrying.
Additionally the action of the rifle can go towards eating the recoil a bit - semi-autos will use some of the gas from the round to cycle the action which will make them kick a bit less, but of course semi-auto rifles aren't legal for hunting everywhere either, so that's a factor, and besides you said you wanted a bolt rifle soo...
The next factor is a recoil pad on the buttstock. These can go a LONG LONG way towards making a rifle more comfortable to shoot and I highly recommend them for any 30 caliber and up rifle. The trick is to get one that doesn't change your stock length (or length of pull) too much so that the rifle still fits comfortably and you can reach the trigger with the proper wrist and hand angle when you mount the gun. You do not want your trigger-hand wrist to be bent very much - ideally it will be straight with your trigger finger straight for all but the most distal two knuckles - this will enable you to have the straightest trigger pull with the least tendency to disturb your hold... anyway, you will know a poorly fitted rifle when you shoulder one and it's not likely that a recoil pad will really mess you up.
On top of that, there are little pads you can buy to slip into the shoulder of your hunting vest or jacket. My own hunting jacket is by Browning and has these little pockets into which you can slip these little gel pads... There are also
recoil pads you can get that buckle on for long time at the range when shooting heavy calibers,
especially for magnum loads... I carry one of these in my range bag by the way, but haven't felt the need to use it on either the 308 or the 30-06. The last time I used it was when I was shooting my brother in law's 7mm magnum rifle...
With all of that said, the 30-06 and 308 will both kick similarly with similar loads and you can address them both pretty satisfactorily with simple modifications if the rifles themselves don't come already equipped with a good recoil pad. My AT&T gun (Savage 10 FP in 308) weighs about 11 pounds with its target barrel and heavy McMillan stock and Leupold MKIV scope and it's got about an inch thick recoil pad kicks far far less than my Winchester model 70 30-06 with no recoil pad even though I routinely shoot heavier loads out of my 308 than my 30-06.
By way of another example, my Glock 21 (45 ACP pistol) kicks a lot less than my Glock 23 (40 S&W pistol). The 21 is a larger gun with a good bit more weight to it and even though the 45 ACP rounds pack much more recoil inherently, the gun bucks less in my hand by virtue of the combination of its weight and the heavier main spring that works the action.
deadcactus posted:
But with the wide range of rifle rounds I'm guessing I could find a round loaded to a more comfortable kick for target practice, no?
Yes you surely can. You will very likely be practicing just to gain proficiency with the rifle, with very cheap bulk ammo that will have a low-ish bullet weight and a moderate powder charge but it is important to remember that you will absolutely want to zero your rifle in preparation for any hunting with the same type of round you will use when hunting.
deadcactus posted:
1) What game are you looking to go after and at what kind of ranges?
Probably mostly deer, but it would be nice (but not mandatory) to go up to bison or moose without having to worry about borrowing a rifle or buying a new one. For ranges, I really don't know since I'm not familiar with what typical hunting distances are. I'm more interested in stalking than stand hunting though if that helps.
Probably 80% of the deer taken in Pennsylvania are shot at fewer than 100 yards, but that's because the terrain in PA is very mountainous or heavily wooded. If you go to the midwest or happen to find yourself on a farm, you could easily be looking at 200 or 300 yard shots, but the point is, you're not talking about 700 yard shots on coyotes and such. 30-06 or 308 will certainly do the trick.
deadcactus posted:
2) Will you be hand loading your own cartridges and working up an optimal load with bullet weight and type and powder charge or just buying "off the shelf" ammo?
Initially, off the shelf but I would load my own when I get some space for the equipment.
3) Do you care about “looks†and non-functional frills and do you care about resale value?
I don't want to put money in an flat-out ugly rifle, but I'm not looking for a work of art. Definitely prefer synthetic stocks to wood. Resale value is a plus, but the plan is to buy a solid rifle to form a permanent part of my collection so it's not a big issue. I don't mind paying a little extra for better resale though.
If you buy a Winchester, you can always sell it for more than you could sell a Savage, though you won't pay as much for a Savage as you will for a Winchester - as for percentage of purchase price retained in resale, I can't speak to that, but in the end, resale value is also about things like a pretty wood stock. Savage certainly isn't a "no-name" brand and in recent years is gaining respect and popularity in the industry - ESPECIALLY as the manufacturers like Winchester have been riding on reputation for the most part while quality has gone down.
deadcactus posted:
-Dyslexia- posted:
i agree with all of the important stuff of what cawlin says.
where and what are you going to be shooting? lots of options. lots of options.
if you just want to kill deer at 200yrds, buy just about anything. it will do the job fine
however, if you want to become good at this, i would suggest you buy a used something (caliber is not that important really). learn how to pick out a good used gun that has been well treated and probably can still shoot. Then learn to accurize it yourself, work up the load, etc. its a hell of a task to do the first time, but you will learn so much about guns/reloading/shooting/ballistics/everything. plus its lots of fun.
I've been keeping an eye out for a used rifle, but not fond of the offerings around here.
But another idea I was playing with is putting together my own AR-15. Buying the lower from an FFL, ordering the parts off the internet, and then learning to build and fine-tune the whole thing. Gives me something to practice shooting with, a small foundation in doing gun work, and enough power to hunt pigs for now. Then look into a 30-06 for deer+ hunting when I've got things down with that...
[Side note: Sorry I missed your message, Dys.]
I don't know too much about hog hunting, but I just watched a show last night "Sons of Guns" and they were building a custom rifle for feral hog hunting in the Louisiana country side. There's an eradication program underway in LA for these hogs which are destroying farmland at alarming rates. Anyway, the guys at Red Jacket Firearms built a custom "Hog Killer" rifle for chasing down 400-600 lb "hogzillas" - and they made it in 458 SOCOM caliber lol. That caliber was designed for use in specialized AR-15s with a special receiver/upper and barrel of course - in short - I don't think you want to be going after wild boars with a 223... I believe you'd be in good shape with a 308 or 30-06 there too, if not a 45-70 or a 458 SOCOM
Building ARs seems like a fun task and I would like to do it some day. I don't even own an AR-15 myself but I suppose I will some day, there certainly LOTS AND LOTS of sources for information about how to do so. If you're really interested in that, I would suggest checking out this website
http://www.ar15.com and the associated forums and put your questions to them. Incidentally, an AR10 is a nice little option too - basically a 30 cal (7.62x51/308) AR15.
By all your descriptions, and now that I understand you're not trying to do competition accuracy shooting, I think you'd be better off with a 30-06 than a 308 because you will simply have more off-the-shelf ammo choices and the accuracy of a 30-06 is PLENTY fine for your purposes. The recoil really isn't any worse than comparable rounds in a 308 - it's all about managing it. Additionally, functional accuracy with a 30-06 is just fine for hunting purposes, it really is. You get minute of angle accuracy out to 600 yards or more - that's excellent. I pulled my 30-06 out for deer season this year and hadn't shot it in a year or more, and the first three cold-barrel shots I fired made a group size of just over 3/4ths of an inch at 100 yards. That's about a 2 inch group at 300 yards - and that's plenty fine for hunting.
Oh and I should have mentioned this earlier but, you can get all the fundamentals down with rifle shooting with a 22 that you can pick up for under $200 (Ruger 10/22) and you can shoot 500 rounds at the range in a day without even feeling it the next day AND for the cost of about one box of 20 rounds of either 308 or 30-06... On top of that, you can customize Ruger 10/22s out the wazoo - basically if you can imagine it, someone has created a custom addon for a 10/22 to make it lol...
Anyway, happy hunting. If I were buying a new hunting rifle today, I would be buying a Savage, it's not just a great deal for the money, it's a great rifle.
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
09-11-2001 A Day that will be remembered 
