| Author |
Topic:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! [Locked] |
Auenwing  Title: straightface
Posts: 589
Registered: 2002-12-27 23:23:12
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
The_Korrigan posted:
It's a check of both.
I agree for the soloing part, it's mostly a gear check (and knowing how to spec/play your spec, of course). But for the other parts, "skilled" players (as in, players "attuned" with their characters, and playing together as a team) will clear the content when random chaotic players will wipe thinking it's impossible.
Here's the thing, I think a large majority of PuG players are not random chaotic players. They are players who have been in guilds before, are in guilds, or have been through dungeons enough (both TBC and LK) to have an understanding of the kinds of "gimmicks" (tactics, strategy, etc.) that Blizz has used in the past. Will a fresh group of random players new to the game in Cata be as successful as a well-oiled group of players that have lived with the same toon (fine-tuning both group play and their class for years)? Of course not. (see * note below on why).
Are there players out there that aren't "skilled" (what the heck IS that in WoW anyways?), that are part of PuGs? Yes. Are they part of guilds? Probably.
Will both wipe at the beginning of Cata? Probably.
Everybody will be on a learning curve starting at the same time. It's just a matter of how fast (and how often they have the chance) to refine in order to avoid wipes.
* And the fact that in a guild group, there will be "group-think" where people are sharing info about what happened and why, which does not often occur in PuGs (at least in WoW.) And yes there is a lot to be said for familiarity. (My son and I have tanked/off-tanked/healed for each other for over a decade. Thrown into a random or new instance, I will know what he is going to pull before he pulls it.)
Wipes = opportunity to experiment / learn. Except for those idiotic Leeroy moments where someone just screws up. Thing is, a guild has an opportunity to go back and discuss it, to analyize it. And learn from it. PuGs don't. Unless you have a rare one that is made up folks who are willing to give it a shot again after figuring out why.
I know you probably won't agree. And that's ok. Been in a lot of PuGs for over a decade, both participating and raid-leading. If people know what to expect and when, they do just fine. Been in the same guild with the same folks for over 12 years, we still screw up. And some of them are spectacular.
-----signature-----
There are those who play tank classes, and those that tank.
The weapon is only as good as the person wielding it.
Free advice is often worth what you pay for it: nothing.
|
slythetove  Title: Julie's Pool Boy
Posts: 146
Registered: 2001-11-7 11:12:56
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
Cawlin posted:
Here's what people have to learn to do to manage pretty much all WoW content as it is and as it will ever be:
Go read the OP of this thread and follow that 
Yes it's that simple. Yes it will be that hard for a large percentage of the game's population.
You know it's true when BOTH Cawlin and I agree on something.
We couldn't be much more different in our perspectives regarding WoW (you can see that by any post where we discuss raiding, soloing, PvP, Hunters, pretty much anything), but the truth is simply the truth.
--Sly
-----signature-----
"a slap in the face" since 1975
85 Priest - 85 Hunter - 85 Mage - 83 Druid
81 Warlock - 80 Paladin - 80 DK
70 Rogue - 70 Warrior
|
Auenwing Title: straightface
Posts: 589
Registered: 2002-12-27 23:23:12
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
Cawlin posted:
Because you understand paper and pencil RPGs Auenwing (AD&D at least if I recall), I will respond to your post with this analogy:
I believe that 5-mans were intended at least in part, to be like little stepping stones in the STORY too (not just the gearing and L2P progression). I believe this is like the way the old AD&D campaigns were designed to some extent with modules (individual adventures tuned for a certain number of players in a given level band) which then progress towards a story and "ultimate" confrontation type of climax e.g. Keep on the Borderlands - to Against the Giants series - to the Drow and Demonweb Pits series - culminating with battle against Lolth the Spider God.
Granted the analogy is not clean and there are divergences in the game but at least in my mind, I see the 5-mans as also telling the story at least partway. Not all 5-mans are part of the story, some are story arcs of their own, but I like them as part of the story anyway - yes they're gear providers now too, but I believe the original intention was to provide true content in terms of the story, not just in terms of "content to have something to do".
Meh, that's my "deep thought" for the day I guess lol.
Interesting perspective I had not considered, thank you!
-----signature-----
There are those who play tank classes, and those that tank.
The weapon is only as good as the person wielding it.
Free advice is often worth what you pay for it: nothing.
|
Cawlin  Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
Auenwing posted:
Cawlin posted:
Because you understand paper and pencil RPGs Auenwing (AD&D at least if I recall), I will respond to your post with this analogy:
I believe that 5-mans were intended at least in part, to be like little stepping stones in the STORY too (not just the gearing and L2P progression). I believe this is like the way the old AD&D campaigns were designed to some extent with modules (individual adventures tuned for a certain number of players in a given level band) which then progress towards a story and "ultimate" confrontation type of climax e.g. Keep on the Borderlands - to Against the Giants series - to the Drow and Demonweb Pits series - culminating with battle against Lolth the Spider God.
Granted the analogy is not clean and there are divergences in the game but at least in my mind, I see the 5-mans as also telling the story at least partway. Not all 5-mans are part of the story, some are story arcs of their own, but I like them as part of the story anyway - yes they're gear providers now too, but I believe the original intention was to provide true content in terms of the story, not just in terms of "content to have something to do".
Meh, that's my "deep thought" for the day I guess lol.
Interesting perspective I had not considered, thank you!
Since I have largely given up on raiding and playing "seriously" the game has become more about story and immersion for me, like it was in the very beginning of retail...
-----signature-----
If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
|
--Syrus-- Posts: 536
Registered: 2003-12-2 15:51:47
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
slythetove posted:
--Syrus-- posted:
Bad players don't plauge me. I litterally ran more then 10 5 mans last night, all of the runs had a least one bad player. I went through a instance where I was both tanking and healing myself. Wasn't a great expirience, but we still got it done.
A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.
I should have picked this out separately. It kind of makes my point even though you intended it to refute my point.
You admit that you had bad players in ever group. Yes, currently you can still finish the content. We agree so far. I 2 manned a boss in H HoR in a fight lasting over 15 minutes while 3 dead party members watched and cheered for us. It was fun.
My whole point is, I fear from what I have heard that in Cata that one bad player will cause you to be unable to complete the content. That's what worries me.
--Sly
Ah I see. ( I did read both posts just didn't quote it.)
This makes a lot of sense, I was reading your post from my game perspective and didn't realise how different yours was. I see where you are coming from now.
It still sounds to me though that it is the players that are most of your problem and not the content.
As for your worry that one bad player will cause a dungeon fail, I just don't see that happening. I don't thinkt he change wil be that drastic. They are saying they are going to bring some challenge back to the game, less AoE more CC, ect. They are not saying WoW will be harder then ever before.
I think it is going to be more like when we ran 10 and 15 man UBRS. Where you around back then? I mean it wasn't impossible but if you broke CC you got taken down pretty quick, wouldn't always mean a wipe, but it wasn't as forgiving as dungeons are now.
-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
|
slythetove Title: Julie's Pool Boy
Posts: 146
Registered: 2001-11-7 11:12:56
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
--Syrus-- posted:
slythetove posted:
--Syrus-- posted:
Bad players don't plauge me. I litterally ran more then 10 5 mans last night, all of the runs had a least one bad player. I went through a instance where I was both tanking and healing myself. Wasn't a great expirience, but we still got it done.
A real good group can 4 man any 5 man dungeon. Exception players with decent gear can even 3 man. Fights take a lot longer but it can be done.
I should have picked this out separately. It kind of makes my point even though you intended it to refute my point.
You admit that you had bad players in ever group. Yes, currently you can still finish the content. We agree so far. I 2 manned a boss in H HoR in a fight lasting over 15 minutes while 3 dead party members watched and cheered for us. It was fun.
My whole point is, I fear from what I have heard that in Cata that one bad player will cause you to be unable to complete the content. That's what worries me.
--Sly
Ah I see. ( I did read both posts just didn't quote it.)
This makes a lot of sense, I was reading your post from my game perspective and didn't realise how different yours was. I see where you are coming from now.
It still sounds to me though that it is the players that are most of your problem and not the content.
As for your worry that one bad player will cause a dungeon fail, I just don't see that happening. I don't thinkt he change wil be that drastic. They are saying they are going to bring some challenge back to the game, less AoE more CC, ect. They are not saying WoW will be harder then ever before.
I think it is going to be more like when we ran 10 and 15 man UBRS. Where you around back then? I mean it wasn't impossible but if you broke CC you got taken down pretty quick, wouldn't always mean a wipe, but it wasn't as forgiving as dungeons are now.
Yep, started at release, so I definitely understand your reference there. That skill level I'm just unsure of whether it's generally available in the playerbase now or not. I really can't say.
Honestly, I've just really enjoyed being able to jump into dungeons whenever I want using the LFD tool. It's so convenient! Given my play style it is possibly the best addition to the game in a very long time. I just don't want that to end.
Like I've said, I truly hope to be surprised and find PuGs still succeeding. I want to heal dungeons as I level! It's fun for me to break up the questing.
--Sly
-----signature-----
"a slap in the face" since 1975
85 Priest - 85 Hunter - 85 Mage - 83 Druid
81 Warlock - 80 Paladin - 80 DK
70 Rogue - 70 Warrior
|
--Syrus-- Posts: 536
Registered: 2003-12-2 15:51:47
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
I agree. I started leveling my pally via questing and then when I realised the true power of the tank insta queue I noticed myself quickly outleveling the zones I am in. Right now I am still sitting in the Inn in Westland at level 34..
-----signature-----
Common Sense is a myth..
Its Hub. 10 week ban for anybody who disagrees. -Mithan-
|
Pacorra Posts: 36
Registered: 2003-11-25 13:52:07
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
slythetove posted:
I truly hope to be surprised and find PuGs still succeeding.
I bet the biggest problem with pugs will be impatience rather than lack of skill or excess of difficulty. Too many people used to faceroll without any need for tactics or kill orders.
On the upside, hopefully when people get a good pug they will congratulate each other and stick together for a few runs, rather than the current style of silent run and quick disband.
|
Dei_Ray_HG Title: Old Fart
Posts: 54
Registered: 2001-2-21 07:09:14
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
Article describes how we used to play dungeons like SM when we were in our 30s way back when.
-----signature-----
AC and WoW: Tired and Retired
Paramedic, Swift Water Rescue, Public Safety Diver
Registered Nurse
 Viet Nam Vet 1972-73 |
Shenron_ Posts: 543
Registered: 2002-12-8 21:34:16
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:05am
Subject:
What Wrath players need to know to not suck at Cata! |
|
who cares about that crap. i like to go into dungeons and play unprepared. i don't sit at ready position and put forth my best effort or whatever i just slouch down drink my soda and click shit. it's a game i don't care if i bring down the group thats what dungeon finder is for.
|
|
