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Author Topic: Are MMO developers smart or dumb? [Locked]
Cawlin  4 stars
Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
Sgian_Dubh posted:

Sin_of_Onin posted:

Designers have to be smart about choosing a targeted play style for a class and spec. The problem is when they want the best of all worlds and fail to establish a good pro con relationship between classes while also dumping a lot of abilities onto a class.

Stealth classes are fun and are not going anywhere.



So how about just dumping classes altogether?

I think the class structure that EVERY MMO uses/has used has played itself out.



It's always funny to me when gamers start talking about free-form MMOs because they want to be a staff and sword specced fire wizard like Gandalf or whatever.

In the end though it doesn't really matter if you dump class structures altogether. You have to have a way to differentiate or specialize players' characters. In doing so, you'll wind up with min/maxed cookie cutter builds anyway.

There will be forum posts:

"Hey guys what I want to do is tank raid content, what's the best build?"
"Hey guys I want an archer with a secondary melee spec, what's the best build?"
etc.

 

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Sin_of_Onin  4 stars
Posts: 1,307
Registered: 2005-6-29 08:21:12
The class structure these days is more like having multiple classes all in one class that can be switched in and out. The WOW Warrior for example is like about 6 DAOC classes in one.


Skill systems are just as problematic if not more so.


As a designer the job is to create a gaming experience that is fun while also offering enough customization so that the player feels like they control their experience through their choices.


I think there is room for a MMOFPS or a more action oriented MMO but as long as the game is using the T/H/D mechanic it really just comes down to layering abilities on top of a core function while also tweaking how a class/spec achieves their core function and their secondary function/s.


The overall class itself is really more about a role playing idea (Paladin for example) and establishing a resource system to build around.

 

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AzureTyger  2 stars
Title: Awesome
Posts: 462
Registered: 2002-4-1 15:49:04
Sgian_Dubh posted:

So how about just dumping classes altogether?

I think the class structure that EVERY MMO uses/has used has played itself out.



Yeah, I like the AC and UO skill based character development formats much better than predefined classes. I dont think it offers a huge improvement over the class system for things like cookie cutter specs and players finding the mathmatecally best possible combos, but at least there is some variance and balancing one skill doesn't create a huge domino effect.

 

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Cawlin  4 stars
Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
Sin_of_Onin posted:

The class structure these days is more like having multiple classes all in one class that can be switched in and out. The WOW Warrior for example is like about 6 DAOC classes in one.



Yeah but that's only because DAOC had two different versions of the same class across each of 3 realms...


Sin_of_Onin posted:

Skill systems are just as problematic if not more so.

As a designer the job is to create a gaming experience that is fun while also offering enough customization so that the player feels like they control their experience through their choices.

I think there is room for a MMOFPS or a more action oriented MMO but as long as the game is using the T/H/D mechanic it really just comes down to layering abilities on top of a core function while also tweaking how a class/spec achieves their core function and their secondary function/s.

The overall class itself is really more about a role playing idea (Paladin for example) and establishing a resource system to build around.



A system with no skills or classes, where any character could basically do anything that any other character could do, would quickly become boring and retarded and you would find out almost immediately that there were optimized ways of doing things and that would be the end of it.

 

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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
Sin_of_Onin  4 stars
Posts: 1,307
Registered: 2005-6-29 08:21:12
Fine, the WOW warrior is 2 DAOC classes.


Either way the current approach to classes is to build multiple classes within a class. There is no reason to think this approach is limited to just 3 classes within one. It could theoretically be 50 within 1. It just comes down to how much time the developers want to spend developing these play styles.

 

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"Okay... I'm with you fellas" --Delmar
F is for Fake-believe
"We apologise for the inconvenience" --God
"What Jesus fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem"--Reg
Run, Forrest! Run!
Sgian_Dubh  2 stars
Posts: 446
Registered: 2003-4-7 10:19:52
Cawlin posted:

Sin_of_Onin posted:

The class structure these days is more like having multiple classes all in one class that can be switched in and out. The WOW Warrior for example is like about 6 DAOC classes in one.



Yeah but that's only because DAOC had two different versions of the same class across each of 3 realms...


Sin_of_Onin posted:

Skill systems are just as problematic if not more so.

As a designer the job is to create a gaming experience that is fun while also offering enough customization so that the player feels like they control their experience through their choices.

I think there is room for a MMOFPS or a more action oriented MMO but as long as the game is using the T/H/D mechanic it really just comes down to layering abilities on top of a core function while also tweaking how a class/spec achieves their core function and their secondary function/s.

The overall class itself is really more about a role playing idea (Paladin for example) and establishing a resource system to build around.



A system with no skills or classes, where any character could basically do anything that any other character could do, would quickly become boring and retarded and you would find out almost immediately that there were optimized ways of doing things and that would be the end of it.



AC is like that and just celebrated it's 12th anniversary.

So, maybe you are wrong?

 

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Sgian_Dubh  2 stars
Posts: 446
Registered: 2003-4-7 10:19:52
AzureTyger posted:

Sgian_Dubh posted:

So how about just dumping classes altogether?

I think the class structure that EVERY MMO uses/has used has played itself out.



Yeah, I like the AC and UO skill based character development formats much better than predefined classes. I dont think it offers a huge improvement over the class system for things like cookie cutter specs and players finding the mathmatecally best possible combos, but at least there is some variance and balancing one skill doesn't create a huge domino effect.



PvP in AC is fast-twitch, FPS style action, which makes for a much more engaging PvP battle than simply getting your stun in first.

 

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Cawlin  4 stars
Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
Sin_of_Onin posted:

Fine, the WOW warrior is 2 DAOC classes.

Either way the current approach to classes is to build multiple classes within a class. There is no reason to think this approach is limited to just 3 classes within one. It could theoretically be 50 within 1. It just comes down to how much time the developers want to spend developing these play styles.



Cawlin posted:

A system with no skills or classes, where any character could basically do anything that any other character could do, would quickly become boring and retarded and you would find out almost immediately that there were optimized ways of doing things and that would be the end of it.



The only way to save such a game from being boring and ridiculous would be to make grouping not required at all and thus, no pressure from the group to optimize play, so you could gimp yourself with your sword and staff melee specced fire wizard, but then you'd be playing Skyrim, and no longer an MMO.

 

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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
Sin_of_Onin  4 stars
Posts: 1,307
Registered: 2005-6-29 08:21:12
What are you even talking about now Cawlin?

 

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"Okay... I'm with you fellas" --Delmar
F is for Fake-believe
"We apologise for the inconvenience" --God
"What Jesus fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem"--Reg
Run, Forrest! Run!
Cawlin  4 stars
Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
Sgian_Dubh posted:

Cawlin posted:

Sin_of_Onin posted:

The class structure these days is more like having multiple classes all in one class that can be switched in and out. The WOW Warrior for example is like about 6 DAOC classes in one.



Yeah but that's only because DAOC had two different versions of the same class across each of 3 realms...


Sin_of_Onin posted:

Skill systems are just as problematic if not more so.

As a designer the job is to create a gaming experience that is fun while also offering enough customization so that the player feels like they control their experience through their choices.

I think there is room for a MMOFPS or a more action oriented MMO but as long as the game is using the T/H/D mechanic it really just comes down to layering abilities on top of a core function while also tweaking how a class/spec achieves their core function and their secondary function/s.

The overall class itself is really more about a role playing idea (Paladin for example) and establishing a resource system to build around.



A system with no skills or classes, where any character could basically do anything that any other character could do, would quickly become boring and retarded and you would find out almost immediately that there were optimized ways of doing things and that would be the end of it.



AC is like that and just celebrated it's 12th anniversary.

So, maybe you are wrong?



Are you still playing AC? How many people are still subscribed?

Maybe only a tiny handful of people, not even including yourself actually like a game system like that...

 

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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters

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