| Author |
Topic:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? [Locked] |
Cawlin  Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
There is no moral obligation to obey the law unless you granted the lawmakers the authority to make the laws.
That's called a social contract and it is bespoke, or assumed.
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Oh really? I thought that was a gift. Sorry, when we discussed that money, I was under the impression that it was a gift. I will loan you $100 but I'm going to need a contract of repayment terms or some collateral before I do so though.
paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
When you get down to it, law is only a subjective discrimination based on what a (presumably) majority of people agree is "right".
Granted in some cases it gets very grey and fuzzy, but this is not such a case and to be honest, it's a little simplistic to argue that because SOME laws are grey, all are - this is not an "in for a penny, in for a pound" argument.
The guy has $50 that is yours and you take it. That doesn't even qualify as fuzzy?
It's not yours. You loaned him the money. He owes you $50 because he asked to borrow it for an undisclosed period of time. You sought no clarification of the terms, thus you tacitly agreed to whatever his terms were. You can take the money back without his permission or even knowledge and he will likely not press charges against you, but you would be legally in the wrong, and you would be morally in the wrong too imo.
-----signature-----
If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
|
paulg_68 Posts: 2,469
Registered: 2009-7-27 18:45:54
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Oh really? I thought that was a gift. Sorry, when we discussed that money, I was under the impression that it was a gift.
We didn't have a discussion. I just made a law. The law is the law and you are morally obligated to follow it because it is the law. Now pay up.
Cawlin posted:
It's not yours. You loaned him the money.
So if I lent you my car the car is morally yours?
I don't think so.
-----signature-----
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
"Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48
"Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
|
|
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
If you loan me your car and I take it to Mexico to smuggle illegals across the border and get caught, do you think the police will just hand you your car back? So its not 100% yours when someone else has domain of it. Where are the lawyers to define Ownership when you need them?
Loans between friends are repaid at the earliest convenience. If you loan me money and then go out of town, do I have to follow you there the moment I have the money?
The only reason why him having the money on him matters is if you think its a sign he won't pay you back. If you don't trust him, why would you loan him money in the first place?
-----signature-----
"Goddammit, Swearengen, I don't trust you as far as I could th'ow you, but I enjoy the way you lie."
I don't typo often, but when I do, I blame Swype.
|
Cawlin Posts: 1,759
Registered: 2005-2-22 07:58:42
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
paulg_68 posted:
Cawlin posted:
paulg_68 posted:
I just made a law that you owe me $100. I'll PM you my paypal info.
Oh really? I thought that was a gift. Sorry, when we discussed that money, I was under the impression that it was a gift.
We didn't have a discussion. I just made a law. The law is the law and you are morally obligated to follow it because it is the law. Now pay up.
Cawlin posted:
It's not yours. You loaned him the money.
So if I lent you my car the car is morally yours?
I don't think so.
So you don't understand how laws work either? First you have to have the authority to enforce a law. There are lots of ways to gain that authority, moral and otherwise, but I'm pretty sure you don't have any authority (or means) to enforce that law.
Also, scope/scale matter in the discussion.
Typically when a loan of a vehicle is discussed there are clear terms about the loan discussed such as: "hey could I borrow your truck on Sunday to move my siht back and forth, I would like to borrow it starting at 9am or so and should be done by 6pm."
Additionally there are legal prohibitions against loaning/borrowing certain types of property (namely firearms) as well.
Finally, I made no comment on the morality of not paying the loan back. I believe it would be immoral to not pay the loan back under the circumstances indicated, but I also believe that two wrongs don't make a right.
-----signature-----
If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
Everyone playing WoW knows everything about playing two classes: 1) their own and 2) Hunters
|
Koneg  Title: Evil Genius
Posts: 894
Registered: 2001-12-4 15:31:28
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
Elocism posted:
no
yes
This.
-----signature-----
* First rule of a gun fight: Have a gun.
|
"Any sufficiently advanced idiocy is
indistinguishable from trolling." -- Arthur C Clarke
|
|
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
Ashmaele posted:
Say you're at a poker game with a group of friends. The poker game is being played at your friend's house (we will call him Sam), and you have all agreed that whoever 'hosts' the game is responsible for paying for pizza. Sam, who is hosting this game, has lost quite a bit during this session and is unable to afford the cost of pizza this time so he asks you to cover it, assuring you that he will "pay you back" at some point (though he does not specify 'when'  . So you pull $50 out of your wallet and pay for the pizza.
The following week you are at another friend's house for a party and you run into Sam. You ask your buddy to repay the $50 he now owes you, but he says that he can't, complaining that he has had a "run of bad luck" and really cannot afford it right now. You take it in stride.
The following week, the two of you are at a third friend's house (we will call him "Bob" preparing to go out for an evening on the town. Sam gives his wallet to Bob while he (Sam) goes into the bathroom to change clothes. Bob looks in Sam's wallet and sees $200 in cash. Bob notifies you of the existence of this cash and, knowing that Sam owes you $50, urges you to take 'your' $50 from Sam's wallet since 'it is your money anyway.'
1. Do you take the money?
2. If you take the money, is it stealing?
no prolly coz the dude is lonely and he needs to pay 100 each to Moe and Tych for some buttsex..... (wearing wigs of course)
|
|
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
God damn you got trolled hard by those two. This is like the third thread I've seen in two days that you arglebargle about them for no reason.
/meltdown.
-----signature-----
"Goddammit, Swearengen, I don't trust you as far as I could th'ow you, but I enjoy the way you lie."
I don't typo often, but when I do, I blame Swype.
|
paulg_68 Posts: 2,469
Registered: 2009-7-27 18:45:54
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
Cawlin posted:
So you don't understand how laws work either? First you have to have the authority to enforce a law. There are lots of ways to gain that authority, moral and otherwise, but I'm pretty sure you don't have any authority (or means) to enforce that law.
There is only one way to have the authority and that is to have it granted to the lawmakers by those who will be subject to the laws. Otherwise it is merely an exercise of power.
Cawlin posted:
Typically when a loan of a vehicle is discussed there are clear terms about the loan discussed such as: "hey could I borrow your truck on Sunday to move my siht back and forth, I would like to borrow it starting at 9am or so and should be done by 6pm."
My neighbor once knocked on my door and said her car wouldn't start and she needed to pick up her kid. I gave her the keys to mine. There was no discussion of when I would get the car back.
The absence of a discussion did not mean she now owned my car until she deigned to give it back. The car was lent until she picked up her kid because that was an implied term of the loan. It was my right to take the car back anytime I wanted after that.
-----signature-----
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
"Everyone has a chance to become rich." - Groucho48
"Most of the human wealth on earth exists between the ears of live human beings." - theredkay1
|
|
|
Date Posted:
1/1/00 12:00am
Subject:
Hypothetical: Is it stealing to take what is rightfully yours? |
Elocism posted:
no
yes
-----signature-----
smellymotor
Young and Free
|
|
