ZepHead205 posted:

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eclectic garbage psychotic stupidity really? That's a bit of a reach... someones mad.


It is accurate. Many things that Mythic has done to the game have been psychotic. Many parts of the game are a hodgepodge and other parts are eclectic and other parts (and both) also constitute a bit of garbage.


Accuracy and reality do not require anger.


Please elaborate on this?


[colorurple]Accuracy and reality have never required anger. Just because my comments show Mythic as being psychotic and/or stupid does not mean I am “mad” at all. This should all be self-evident.


That you even suggested that anger “mad” was required for me to have stated the obvious shows that you are using a straw man argument.

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but it's a 10yr old mmo; what do you expect?


This is an old, tired and lame excuse. WoW is not much younger than DAoC and WoW (at its 6 year point) has 10 million +++ subs while the better game concept of DAoC has a tiny fraction of the market. At DAoC’s 6 year mark DAoC was dieing. If DAoC were managed properly it could have a much larger portion of the market. DAoC need not be dieing. This all should all be self-evident.


You can't compare WoW to DAoC or any game for that matter. It's in a league of its own; any game could be considered dieing compared to WoW population. Countless factors lead to WoW coming out on top; imo mainly the surge of people learning how to build their own computers and the emergence of sites such as Newegg, Tigerdirect etc.


Of course there can be a comparison made. Just because the comparison makes your position untenable does not mean the comparison is invalid (though I can fully understand why you would not like such a comparison to be made).


WoW shows how HUGE the market is for MMO games. Even though WoW is in inferior game concept to DAoC's game concept, WoW shows how a properly implemented inferior game can have a vibrant subscription base for many years and years. While there are some forms of comparison that are probably not great to get into, WoW does show the silliness of DAoC’s problems being blamed on the age of DAoC.


The problems that DAoC has have nothing to do with the age of the game and everything to do with the incompetence of Mythic.


If you don't like the state of DAoC follow the lemmings to WoW.

Unfortunately this attitude leads to a dead/dieing game. Also unfortunately, most at Mythic seem to feel the same way but I have always found evidence that Mythic is both a bit psychotic and self-destructive.


What other attitude should we have?


[colorurple]When Mythic has done so much over the years that has angered players, advocating that players who dislike what Mythic has done to the game should leave the game, it should be self-evident that taking such a destructive position requires a bit of psychosis. [/color]


People are smart enough to realize they are NEVER going to pump more money into DAoC. The profits margins are just to low.


[colorurple] But that is not true. Mythic is at this very moment pumping money into DAoC. Granted it is not a lot of money but they are spending on development.


Discussion is almost always helpful. Even when Mythic disregards the player’s input, the discussions should not be stopped. We are lucky that the boards and our actions are not governed by a psychotic dictator. [/color]


Self-destructive I agree with; this can't be argued. But again it was the early days of mmos trial and error we're prevelant. Mythic/EA just didn't realize what a great product they had pre TOA before it was to late.


[colorurple] So some of what Mythic has done is self-destructive but the game is not eclectic, a hodgepodge or in any way psychotic? Well that is interesting. [/color]


Advertising won't help DAoC; nothing will.

Not true. There are things that could be done for the game that would increase subscriptions but it is very doubtful that EA or DAoC understands enough about player/customer psychology to accomplish that which needs to be done (even if EA was willing to spend the money it is unlikely those at EA or Mythic have the necessary understanding).


Plausible suggestions? and please don't say DAoC 2 / Origins.


[colorurple] Books have been written on VN about the problems with the game and solutions to those problems. Most problems are self-evident and as such much of the answer to your query should also be self-evident. But there is a lot of information on the following thread about what could be done to help DAoC:


http://vnboards.ign.com/daoc_general_board/b5176/115032421/p1/

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Thbbb posted:

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Actually people are begging for something else to play. Many people play wow because it is the best supported PvE game on the market. We all go and try other things but come back to WoW when we realize those games only offer a less well made version of WoW.

The numbers do not support this statement. WoW subscriptions from NA/EU have been rising since release. However, they are leveling off now; but still we're talking about 5 million players from the west. The only hit WoW has ever taken was briefly in mid 2009 when Aion was released. 6 million players from the East jumped ship to play/farm Aion. Again this only lasted for around 3 months, then the subs came right back.

DAOC is not WoW and that is a good thing. But DAOC can learn some things from WoW.

1. The leveling world needs to be fun and populated. That’s how you build a game with staying power.

Agree here, but WoW also has huge expanses of empty zones. This doesn't stop people from subscribing. WoW doesn't start until you get 85, and people race to get there. They have no need to hang around low levels when SO much work is needed at level 85. Coming from a recent stint with Cataclysms I raced to 85 over 6 days playtime and didn't encounter more than a handful of people until 80-85. Then again you can always queue bgs/dungeons to socialize and level with fellow players.

2. Mailbox and improved UI. WoW is smooth. The interface is easy and it feels natural to play. People who go to DAOC from WoW or other modern MMOs find that the DAOC UI is clunky and difficult to manage. The answer should NEVER be to go download a special mod.

True every facet of WoW's interface blows DAoC away. But again WoW has more mods than any game out there. Mods are convenient and customizable to individual play styles. If anything the addition of thousands of mods has only helped WoW prosper.

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ZepHead205 posted:

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I wanted you to elaborate on this statement "Many things that Mythic has done to the game have been psychotic. Many parts of the game are a hodgepodge and other parts are eclectic and other parts (and both) also constitute a bit of garbage."


Not elaborate on me saying you were mad. I was only being sarcasitc in the first place; I didn't literally mean you were mad...


[colorurple] I thought my response rather obtuse . . . and funny. Initially I did include some specifics but, as I finished my post and linked to the other thread that discussed the games problems, I felt that the other thread may contain enough comments about game problems that fit each of the three things in question. So I removed the additional specifics and answered as if I misread your question (lol).


When I say psychotic, I do not mean a street person, talking to thin air and pushing a shopping cart that is loaded with precious old bottles. Mythic has some brilliant people but often it seemed that Mythic management allowed brilliant people to run amok, letting any little psychosis have free rein.


To add a few specifics:


Cows on two legs in battle armor fighting in Camelot? That must be eclectic or perhaps it’s a hodgepodge (perhaps both).


TOA was also a huge stretch in the game lore (also a bit eclectic and a hodgepodge).


Mythic promoting the use of Bots, when at the same time acknowledging the damage bots were doing to the game, that is a bit psychotic.


When players were screaming about players being spread too thin in the frontiers, Mythic listened. Mythic thought long and hard. Then Mythic decided to add to the NF area with the Labyrinth? Tell me that is not just a bit psychotic.


Lori stated that one of the rules of development is (Paraphrased) “players do not like their toons being messed with and developers should only mess with the players characters when it is absolutely necessary” yet Mythic constantly broke that rule. Knowing that a rule is extremely important, knowing that breaking the rule is harmful to the game and then constantly breaking the rule and messing with characters. . . again this has to be just a bit psychotic.


Every paid expansion came with an OP class and OP items. It was standard that Mythic would, in an attempt to make the expansion more desirable to players, include an OP new class that upset balance and also include new OP items in an expansion and then refrain from balancing the OP class until Mythic felt enough expansion packs had been sold (usually it took 6 months to a year for adjustments to happen). Until Mythic came out with the OP class adjustments, players just had to yell/scream/whine on the boards and put up with the problems. IMO it was psychotic of Mythic to cause damage to the game for questionable short-term gain at the expense of long-term profitability.


Early on and for years and years Mythic stated that player controlled horses could not be coded, yet early on at the beginning of the game all the code existed for today’s player controlled horse (early on the game had shape shifting, the game had variable speed that dropped when entering combat and the game had the visual representation of characters on a horse). Stupid senseless lies to the customer base is self-destructive, which is psychotic.


For years and years players begged for stacking pots yet Mythic stated without ambiguity that stacking pots could NOT be put in the game without rewriting most, if not all, of the existing code. Then GAO created barrels and not long after, Mythic was forced to admit that stacking pots were actually something that could be coded. Stupid senseless lies to the customer base is self-destructive, which is a sigh of a psychosis.


TOA was promised to “not have a significant impact on RvR and would not be required by players for those players to RvR”. For any at Mythic to make such a statement about TOA, it was simply psychotic.


Early on in the game MJ was always on the boards making promises about what would be put into the game. He promised to fix bugs, promised player controlled horses, promised mail, promised etc. . . . yet expansion after expansion came out and the promised repairs and improvements seemed to never come. Today there is still a plethora of unfixed bugs dating from the early years.


10 years now and players are still waiting for mail.


For almost a decade now the Herald has been horribly outdated and loaded with misinformation. The Herald is one of the first places noobs go to find out about the game and after a noob reads the Herald info the noob enters the game and finds the actual game has very little resemblance to the game that is described on the Herald. This is self-destructive and as such it is psychotic. Sorry, it is not a mistake or an oversight; it is the action of someone battling with a self-destructive psychosis.


Slash level (letting any with a level 50 jump a new character instantly to level 30, and then later it was adjusted so that new alts could jump to level 20) caused the noob areas of the game to turn into ghost towns where clueless noobs had to teach other noobs how to play. Mythic acknowledged that /level caused harm and there were alternatives that Mythic could have put in place so that /level could be removed, but Mythic left /level in the game. Knowing and admitting its harm to the game and yet leaving /level in the game, that is psychotic.


I beta tested almost all of the expansions and most beta testers will acknowledge (we often discussed it in chat) that the testers knew about and reported many, many problems that ended up going live. Even though Mythic knew about the problems, even though Mythic knew from past experience that players became intensely angry when known problems went live, Mythic kept letting bugs go live. Also, it was known SOP for Mythic to leave bugs in the game and move on to the next expansion. Knowing that bugs angered players and knowing that the bugs existed and deliberately leaving the bugs in the game, that is a sign of a recurring psychosis.


Not so much with SI but defiantly with TOA/Catacombs, the expansions of TOA and Catacombs made most of the old world questing, old world mobs, old world dungeons, old world etc. . . .obsolete. This fits for a hodgepodge of questing, mobs, drops, etc . . . in that the expansions of TOA/Cat were almost completely uncoordinated with the old world.


I could go on and on and on and on . . . . sadly there are pages and pages that could be written on the silly and psychotic actions of Mythic over the years.

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straw man argument untenable psychotic dictator Nice word usage; these are not very common... It seems you're either educated or are good with a thesaurus.


I'm kinda confused on the topic at hand. Are we talking about EA being run by Fidel Castro? Haha j/k you do raise some good points.


"WoW does show the silliness of DAoC’s problems being blamed on the age of DAoC." This I can agree with 100% and it makes me sad.


"WoW shows how HUGE the market is for MMO games." True, but is it for the mmo market or just WoW? I mean 95% of the market is only playing Wow...


[colorurple] WoW does have a large percentage of the MMO market but it may not be 95%. The chart is from 2008 but I do not think WoW went from 62% to 95%.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart7.html


Also many, many MMO players have subscriptions to multiple games. Players from WoW need not be won away from WoW but simply intrigued to sub to something else in addition to WoW, that is a different paradigm. [/color]


At this point could EA put faith in what DAoC brings to the table? If they decided to put the majority of company spending into Dark Age (or DAoC 2) would it even make a dent in the overall mmo market? I think not; people are infatuated with WoW. I never see Blizzard relinquishing the strangle hold they have on the market.


[colorurple] Again, I believe your paradigm is incorrect. A new game need not beat WoW to gain WoW customers. Many that play WoW, heck many players from most games, try out new games and and many players keep subs to multiple games.


A new game does not need to beat WoW, it just needs to be feature filled, mostly bug free, have a concerned support system and be fun to play.


Building on DAoC it would take $15 million to $20 million to produce an iteration of DAoC. With only 800,000 boxes sold that would gross about $32 million (net about $12 million) and with 200k subs the game would gross about $36 million a year in sub fees, fully recouping the cost of development in just the first year. The catch is, and something Mythic can’t seem to get a handle on, if they ever expected an iteration to succeed Mythic could not allow psychotic actions to bleed through and make contact with the paying customer.

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