It's not illogical at all. Game developers focused on PvE make a task take more time artificially through cooldowns on dungeons, or AI that capitalizes off player mistakes and technicalities to easily prevent most players from completing high end PvE content. Then when algorithmic methods are discovered and made public, more content is added to prolong the hamster wheel that is PvE. This common practice doesn't make it a "challenge," just time consuming. Then there's the significant subset of players that will make many alts...




I am indifferent about it, and made no complaint, merely observations about the state of MMORPGs which try to cater to the growing crowd of people that want instant gratification.

 

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Yet another contradiction.

You say the game is made for those who wants instant gratification, yet say players are hamsters on an endless wheel.

Which is it?

Continual instant gratification forms the wheel/treadmill. Mainstream MMORPGs have been doing this for years, and it's pretty obvious if you compare new mechanics to those of older MMORPGs that actually punished you for mistakes and losses. Now, to cater to the growing player base, it's nothing more than an inconvenience because the vast majority of players couldn't stand something that was actually difficult, and (as an example) you have small announcements popping up on your screen celebrating every little personal victory to make people feel good about themselves. PvE will always be algorithmic, there isn't any challenge in it, just AI that is coded to take advantage of technicalities.

 

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“Lets be honest” Bioware revamping the new player experience would indicate that “All 3. . .” is a vastly inadequate number.


It is true that ‘new things tend to attract more people than old things’ and it is true that ‘almost everyone in the world makes decisions based on superficial reasoning’, but you use valid generalities in an attempt to validate your incorrect opinion of DAoCs seeming lack of attraction of noobs. Bioware/Mythic, based on information that is in conflict with your supposition, would seem to have spent considerable resources building a new user experience. Also in conflict with your supposition is the fact that WoW is no longer a new game yet WoW is still pulling in huge numbers. Reality would indicate that while many players may try out a new MMO simply because the MMO is new, the vast majority of MMO players end up at the games that tend to offer what the players ‘want’ even if that game happens to be ageing.



I agree.


Statements along the lines of, “I do not like WoW. . . .” show logical reasoning.


Statements like, “WoW is bad” show an egocentric lack of logic.


Based on objective and quantifiable numbers WoW is very, very good. Imo those who denigrate WoW, or denigrate those that play WoW, because of a bias or because of illogical, pretentious or existential reasoning are . . . . well to put it politely they have problems.


WoWs very numbers show that WoW has what most MMO players are looking for. WoWs numbers are so HUGE that it is ludicrous and borders on psychotic to label WoW as “bad”.


I am not saying that everyone should like WoW, but just because some isolated people do not like WoW does not mean that WoW is bad.


Unfortunately many people incorrectly use their own feelings as universal truth even when the obvious facts indicate something completely different.





While I agree with much of your position, I disagree with some of your post. Some of your post is illogical.


Most of those who are playing WoW are actually “busy with PvE”. PvE is one of WoWs strengths. Most MMO players are PvE centric and it is the PvE that attracts and keeps many/most at WoW. Just because some of the most difficult parts of WoW are so very difficult that most players are unable to complete the highest levels, does not contradict a statement indicating that “all (or more accurately, ‘almost’ all) are PvEing”.





Yes there is some challenge to WoW but it is a vastly different challenge than what is found in the RvR of DAoC. PvE can be challenging but it is often a static challenge. Many of WoWs higher-level dungeons have very complex encounters, not unlike some of TOAs complex encounters, where players must learn to do exactly the correct thing at exactly the correct time at exactly the correct place. . . .or the players wipe. While that can have a form of complexity and challenge, once the encounter is learned, from doing the encounter or from reading about it, then the steps are often easily repeatable. So there is complexity and challenge but it is far different from the ever-changing challenge provided by fighting real players instead of fighting computer controlled MOBs.


I can fully understand why someone would find in general that RvR is a greater challenge than most PvE.


But you are correct that is should be clear that “there is some challenge to the game” of WoW. Only the pretentious would deny it.


Those who trivialize WoW, or trivialize those who find PvE fun, show significant challenges with their own self-esteem. I would liken them to any who would trivialize another’s hobby simply because they did not approve of or like the other persons hobby. Just because one finds another’s recreational activities boring does not actually trivialize the other person’s recreational activity. Those who trivialize or denigrate others often do so in an attempt to bolster what they feel are their own failings.


The OPs post is still valid. Mail should be added to the game.


Mythic/Bioware should have added mail a very long time ago.

 

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It was clearly hyperbole, just like your use of "considerable resources" . Attempting to attract new players is not the same as actually attracting and retaining them. We can't determine DAoC's retention of new players without any official release of numbers of age of accounts. Any conjecture is based on observations, but in general the people that are new and stick around are those that are friends of existing players and are helped by them. Instead, it's usually former players that come back and mostly because there's a free two week trial to give them a brief sense of nostalgia before they inevitably quit again.




That was directed at me, and I never posted that I didn't like it, or it was bad. Proofs based on initial statements have to actually use statements that exist. Just saying~ In any case, high subscription numbers is not an indication that it is "very, very good." It means it is popular, and that is clearly different from being good, though they aren't mutually exclusive.




Sure, but don't implement it on the pretense that it is part of the expectations of players from different MMORPGs.

 

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You seem to be neglecting entirely that there is a PVP aspect to WoW. World PvP, BG's, events, arena... The highest level of World of Warcraft's Arena is brutally difficult, far more complex than any endless zerging or assist/spam nuke or bomb train in DAoC.

If you think WoW is a treadmill, what do you think of DAoC's near endless RR grind?

I did not forget, and that small portion of the population does not represent the whole subscriber base. I explicitly stated that my posts were about PvE. Anyway, world PvP and BGs in basically every game is just people farming gear/valor. Arena would actually be difficult against other competitive groups, and this is analogous to 8v8 in DAoC (which fewer than 1% of the subscriber base takes part in). I'm guessing you're not part of the < 1% given your description of RvR.




In over ten years, the rr cap has only been increased twice (changing 10L10 to 11L0 and extending the cap to 12L0, then again to 13L0). And even though the first rr13 was reached over five years ago, the cap hasn't been increased again. This is nothing compared to increasing level caps repeatedly in newer games and the ranking/rating system.

 

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Right, DAoC isn't a hamster wheel because you grind towards the unchanging, practically unobtainable rr13, yet WoW is a hamster wheel because you grind on the ever increasing new content.

Do you actually function in real life, or do you collect government assistance for your condition?

The person that did it was a Frostalf RM. Frostalfs couldn't be created until ToA. That means he did it in fewer than 3 years and 2 months. The game has been out for over 10 years. This alone should show that it's not only is it obtainable, but that few try to get RR13 primarily due to the diminishing returns on time investment for 10 extra RSPs over RR12. Nonetheless, it is unlikely that the cap will be raised again, yet you want to compare DAoC to games that periodically do things such as increasing level cap.




You realize that if what you are saying is true, you are losing debates left and right to a disabled person? Get ripped.

 

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Thanks, Stephen Hawking.

 

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