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Author Topic: Hotfixes - Why so many? [Locked]
Vault_News  3 stars
Title: 0110011010
Be Nice to Me I'm a Bot

Posts: 982
Registered: 2005-10-18 12:53:17
Bashiok posted:

Quote:

We actually spent a bit of time talking to the designers about this very topic, and it's something they're well aware of and realize isn't always ideal.

A few really great points came out of that meeting, though:

Some changes in 4.0.6 and/or 4.0.6a were just wrong. For a myriad of reasons the changes made in 4.0.6/4.0.6a either did not pan out as expected, or were simply mis-calculations/interpretations. Which is the reason for a number of the quick reversions and changes in hotfixes shortly after the patch.

While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes. Forum posts always make a lot of noise. It's difficult to separate the seed from the chaff. Yes, it turned out a number of reports proved to be accurate once the 4.0.6's hit the masses and we were able to get a sample size that showed us what needed adjusting.

The third point discussed was that we have an obligation to deploy hotfixes when we feel we're making quality of life-improvements, fixing errors, or simply making good balance changes. Good balance is very much debatable among who you ask, of course.

Fourth point really struck home with all of the designers, and that's that they also have an obligation to not use the live realms as a balancing laboratory. That while the changes being made have seemed very quick and sporadic at times, that there is thought and planning going in to them, and they are consciously avoiding throwing out changes and seeing what happens. While some changes have been implemented and then reverted, it's not because a lot of thought and effort didn't go into them, but that simply they didn't work as intended.

I know a lot of us remember the old days where classes would sit without changes for months, in some cases years for specific mechanics. A class would dominate for 6 months, and that's just how the game was. While we think good, measured changes in patches is far more visible and understandable, that hotfixes allow so much more to offering immediate relief that we'd be remiss in not using them to offer a better game experience to you, the players. There's an agreement that 4.0.6 and 4.0.6a have been pretty chaotic with hotfixes, and that's due to a number of issues that we don't consider to be 'usual'. We fully expect them to slow down substantially from this point, and we really appreciate everyone who stays on top of the hotfix blog, and relates the changes as they're made to their guildies and friends.



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Quazimortal  4 stars
Title: The One and Only
Posts: 1,557
Registered: 2004-9-18 21:52:58
Don't worry guys, it'll be balanced once Cata comes out and we are all 85.


Vault_News posted:

While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes.



This right here is the core of the issue. You mean you had people telling you about these issues and you couldn't be bothered to test it? Absolutely lazy!

 

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Sprawl-zero1eye-  4 stars
Title: IGN Vault Staff
Reziztance iz Futile

Posts: 1,001
Registered: 2002-6-28 03:39:29
So what is the point of the PTR then if not to catch and test these things? Don't they have a few PTR servers?

I'm sorry but I feel like I'm being lied to.

Perhaps I'm just jaded because I've taken an extended break, and the Trion Developers will say things like "wow guys we messed up", whereas Blizzard says "don't worry guys, it may look like we messed up, but we really didn't".

 

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aon_mixed  4 stars
Title:
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Posts: 2,317
Registered: 2002-8-19 07:30:30
i am so disenfranchised!

 

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Arunne  1 star
Title: The Anonymous
Posts: 177
Registered: 2003-11-3 14:11:47
aon_mixed posted:

i am so disenfranchised!



Yup! Its getting really tiresome to read all these condecending messages like we are too stupid to understand their vision. I know some of us are, but not all of us, i think

 

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Ugh_Lancelot  3 stars
Title: Ooo...bouncy!
Posts: 766
Registered: 2002-6-17 14:37:05
Quazimortal posted:

Blizzard posted:

While there was feedback from the PTR on what is broken, overpowered, underpowered, etc. there simply wasn't enough data and real world proof for us to make changes.



This right here is the core of the issue. You mean you had people telling you about these issues and you couldn't be bothered to test it? Absolutely lazy!


You'd think that after 6 years of stunning success they would have had someone come up with a stress test tool that mathcrafted stacking issues or mana-longevity issues. Normalization isn't hard, it's just tedious.


Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

So what is the point of the PTR then if not to catch and test these things? Don't they have a few PTR servers?

I'm sorry but I feel like I'm being lied to.

The PTR still serves to catch glaring issues like major glitches with new bosses, completely broken mechanics (e.g.: BG never ends because victory condition is fubar) and the like. Stacking issues (e.g.: if you buff these three buffs, this spell becomes essentially free or does WTFBBQ damage) really can't be tested in such a small group setting unless they just get lucky. Those and other subtle bugs require test harnesses that can find edge cases through mathcraft or LOTS of people to stress all the combinations. Hell, some bugs go unreported until a class/spec becomes more popular and someone tries something off-the-wall. Look at hunters in all spellpower gear back around the BC timeframe -- nobody envisioned that but they sure as hell nerfed the snot out of it when it did happen.

 

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Deionnara  1 star
Posts: 149
Registered: 2001-12-28 14:12:02
aon_mixed posted:

i am so disenfranchised!



I am discombobulated!

 

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regulator_cracka  4 stars
Title: They finally recognized greatness.
Posts: 3,726
Registered: 2009-1-6 15:07:53
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Voqar  1 star
Posts: 169
Registered: 2001-3-12 10:39:10
Sprawl-zero1eye- posted:

and the Trion Developers will say things like "wow guys we messed up", whereas Blizzard says "don't worry guys, it may look like we messed up, but we really didn't".



You're comparing a game that's in beta with a handful of players vs the king with 12m? I guess as part of the hype machine that's your duty but it's kind of silly. It's pretty easy to say whatever when your game isn't out yet and you're not really accountable - and people aren't paying yet.


Regardless, the number of hotfixes is odd but I'd rather see them adjust more often than less often when adjustments are necessary. It's not like server-side activity has any noticeable effect on getting in the game. The odder part to me is the sledgehammer approach to tweaking. It's like, hmm, this spec is underperforming, let's boost 3 different things by 30% randomly - doh, new fotm, hmm, where'd we put that nerfbat.


I've know several people who hit the PTR and I've never heard one of them mention anything about testing. They go to check out new stuff and see things before they hit. I can't imagine the quality of testing is all that amazing on the PTR. I'm sure rift beta testers are all programmers and experts at debugging who give detailed analysis of their every moment in triplicate tough.

 

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Sprawl-zero1eye-  4 stars
Title: IGN Vault Staff
Reziztance iz Futile

Posts: 1,001
Registered: 2002-6-28 03:39:29
^perhaps but you can really insert any developer in there and be half right...

Blizzard has forgotten about the customer being right, and even when they decide that they are right, they seem to have problems saying it. This isn't how they always were.

Again, I'm jaded. I'm playing another game and being critical about the one I am not playing.

 

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