Rosaria Title: They call me Mellow Yellow, quite rightly. Posts: 477 Registered: 2003-8-22 10:07:30
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
Cawlin posted:
Ptilk posted: Liberals like to cut spending just as much as conservatives do. They just like to cut different things. No liberal I know wants to tax everyone down to poverty. That's just stupid. Many of us do want higher taxes though...on everyone, not just the rich. Many of us also want a uniform corporate tax rate that has no loopholes and no deductions.
A simple progressive tax code with zero exemptions and zero caps and no different rates based upon marital status for individuals would be a great step for getting our economic system back in order.
There are literally thousands of government programs that should be eliminated. Food stamps, EITC, the vast majority of the standing military, our current public education system, medicare and medicaid, all those state and local programs for childrens health insurance, welfare and housing vouchers, DEA, ICE, CIA, most of the criminal justice system, the list is almost endless.
Of course, when many of the above are eliminated, something else will have to be created to take it's place. All the health and medical programs replaced with single payer, public education system with one that is more uniform and funded differently, most federal law enforcement and criminal justice consolidated and much, much smaller....but more efficient systems will save tons of money, as well as providing a better service for that money.
Like I said in another thread:
we need a reboot.
Instead we will get a choice between Romeny and Obama. Oh my effing God, they're so different!!1 On the one hand you have liberals crying and pissing that Obama is center right, too conservative, and gives in to Republicans yet on the other hand they can't wait to vote for him. My conclusion is that liberals are the effing conservatives they keep whining about.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
Scarne posted:
Cawlin posted: Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.
Except the article is about tax cuts, not spending increases.
So from your example, if you have income of $5000 and expenses of $6000, you want the course of action to be to decrease your income to $4000.
No. I want expenses to be cut first and then we can talk about income. Call it a good faith gesture if you must, but until we see that, neither party is talking any sort of sense whatsoever.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
Rosaria posted: Instead we will get a choice between Romeny and Obama. Oh my effing God, they're so different!!1 On the one hand you have liberals crying and pissing that Obama is center right, too conservative, and gives in to Republicans yet on the other hand they can't wait to vote for him. My conclusion is that liberals are the effing conservatives they keep whining about.
I believe that liberals just still believe that Obama will eventually be the guy to tear it all down and rebuild a better system despite the fact that he has proven himself to be just as much of a corporate shill as anyone else. You know what they say about repeating the same actions and hoping for a different outcome...
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
I stopped reading when I saw he was defining not raising taxes as a tax cut. If you start with a lie there it no way you are telling the truth.
Fact is if you put a 100% tax on everyone making over 250k a year you would not balance the budget. Not that anyone would make much if more of all they could keep was 250k, but if they did, it would not solve out spending problem. Liberals are so stupid. Obama makes a issue and they blindless follow him.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
Cawlin posted: If you're income is already maxed, then you must cut expenses.
When your expenses outstrip your earnings and you're going into debt, a private citizen rarely has the option to just simply "increase their income" - ESPECIALLY in the current economy. We cannot typically go to our bosses and demand a raise. Your typical private citizen MUST cut their expenses.
Private citizens are admonished to be fiscally responsible and to examine their expenses and to live within their means and that debt is to be managed with the utmost of care.
Meanwhile, how is our government acting?
Most of the time private citizens can increase their income with a second job.
The government does not face the same income limitations that private citizens do, especially in a low tax country like the US. There is zero reason to think that the federal govt's income is maxed out.
Cawlin posted: Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.
Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties. Im not sure how you have missed it.
The US is a very low tax country. It spends almost all of its money on military and health care. If you are talking about spending cuts outside of those two areas, you are mostly wasting everyone time.
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
theredkay1 posted: Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties.
Yes, you've got the Republicans saying we should do it even though they won't, and we have the Democrats saying if we cut even a little it will cause Armageddon.
That's not really a useful conversation.
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Kjarhall Title: The Pungent One Posts: 915 Registered: 2002-3-1 15:47:21
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
paulg_68 posted:
theredkay1 posted: Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties.
Yes, you've got the Republicans saying we should do it even though they won't, and we have the Democrats saying if we cut even a little it will cause Armageddon.
That's not really a useful conversation.
It's not really a useful statement either, since it's wrong.
Anyone who isn't a partisan hack would acknowledge that both sides have talked about spending cuts, but disagree WHERE they should come from.
And on taxes, it's pretty much the same thing. Both sides are willing but disagree on the triggers to make them agree to it.
The rest is just a bunch of Fisted arglebargle.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
theredkay1 posted:
Cawlin posted: If you're income is already maxed, then you must cut expenses.
When your expenses outstrip your earnings and you're going into debt, a private citizen rarely has the option to just simply "increase their income" - ESPECIALLY in the current economy. We cannot typically go to our bosses and demand a raise. Your typical private citizen MUST cut their expenses.
Private citizens are admonished to be fiscally responsible and to examine their expenses and to live within their means and that debt is to be managed with the utmost of care.
Meanwhile, how is our government acting?
Most of the time private citizens can increase their income with a second job.
The government does not face the same income limitations that private citizens do, especially in a low tax country like the US. There is zero reason to think that the federal govt's income is maxed out.
The government's income comes from the private citizens. If the private citizens are to pay the government more, you seem to be advocating that those of us who can and do work, should get a second job so that we can work more to afford to pay more to the government.
theredkay1 posted:
Cawlin posted: Meanwhile, if you want to stick to the analogy, the government is NOT telling us about cuts to its spending. One party is telling us about cuts it wants to make to taxes, while the other party is telling us about increases it wants to make to taxes... conspicuously absent is a discussion of spending cuts. That is the very definition of fiscally irresponsible behavior.
Spending cuts are at the front of the conversation in both parties. Im not sure how you have missed it.
The US is a very low tax country. It spends almost all of its money on military and health care. If you are talking about spending cuts outside of those two areas, you are mostly wasting everyone time.
I stated yesterday, I think defense spending is WAY WAY overkill.
I know there are issues with the funding of various social programs - they are poorly administered and poorly managed (medicare paying top dollar for therapies when more affordable options exist for the exact same therapies as an example).
As for the discussion of spending cuts, at best it's a boondoggle with each side proposing a whole lot of nothing, while leaving all their own favorite pork programs' funding untouched.
Also, yes, I believe the tax code needs massive revisions and that there are far too many loopholes and deductions allowed. Whenever people talk about the tax rate in the US and how "high it is" without also talking about how low the actual tax rate is after all deductions and exemptions are factored in, it annoys the piss out of me because it's such a knowingly disingenuous way to speak about the matter.
With that said though, the middle class is the economic engine of this and every other successful nation. Squeezing the middle class further will only turn some of them into lower class and render them a bigger burden on the rest in a cycle that ultimately leaves the middle class smaller and smaller until it disappears entirely.
The American people have been duped long enough by government that spends like drunk sailors whenever they get a few extra bucks. It's time to rein that in before we give them any more money to pass over to their ultra wealthy corporate backers.
Cut spending first. Earn Americans' trust that you can be fiscally responsible again, THEN we can talk about changing tax revenues.
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If ignorance were painful, half the posters here would be on morphine drips.
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Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
Cutting spending during a huge economic downturn is about as dumb an idea as there is. See Great Britain, for example.
Raising taxes isn't a great thing to do during an economic disaster, either, but, if you claim that deficits are THE DEVIL!!!, then, letting the Bush tax cuts expire is the single best thing we can do to lower the deficits.
BTW, the projected deficit for the coming year is down once again. The cost, though, is that the economy grew about 25% less than it would have if state, local and Federal governments hadn't cut spending so much and laid so many people off. That tends to really hurt an economy that is already in rough shape.
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Ptilk Title: Creepy old pirate Posts: 2,359 Registered: 2002-2-13 14:52:58
Date Posted:1/1/00 12:00amSubject:
Trillions in tax cuts
Drastic cuts to spending now is fricken insane as Groucho mentioned. We are still in the biggest downturn in the US economy in generations and are just barely starting to maybe, sorta, hopefully get out of it.
We are actually seeing some positive developments in manufacturing for the first time in decades. GM and even Chrysler are making money again and hiring. We have a huge available work force, and labor costs are rising all over the world....while ours are dropping. Not just wages go into this, productivity is much higher here as well which drives down the total cost of labor.
Slow and steady cuts to inefficient and/or superfluous programs is already being planned. Huge cuts to the military are absolutely required. Almost 1 trillion dollars a year goes into DoD, Homeland Security, and off the books costs for wars and soldiers all over the god damned world. Enough already. It's fking obscene. But again, slow and steady cuts that allow natural attrition to reduce the number of soldiers and sailors and the huge, bloated civilian contract force that works with them. Over 10 to 15 years, those numbers could easily be cut in half, and more would be even better.
Tax cuts have to expire. It's time. More than 10 years and a cost of trillions added to the deficit. Done. The payroll tax cuts are just as stupid as the income tax cuts. They served a purpose, but they need to be gone now.
Medicare is the big problem at the moment. We need single payer for all, not just for old and/or sick people that require a lot of medical attention. That move alone would save us trillions of dollars over the next decade.
